Slay Undead Poll: Dev requested feedback

[Normy]

Fero 7, Cleave 8, Tempered Steamwound Pummeler is my weapon for DPS at the moment, 35 delay, 124 damage, 3 fire damage. Has Fiery Strike IV and Chaotic Strike III on it from the aug.

2044 AA should cover the AA cost of all offensives.
With my 2h weapon on I will have 153/150 accuracy. Will have 110/100 on my combat effects. 42/35 strikethrough if I'm doing the parse from the front of the mob. Attack is well overmaxed at 660/350. Worn haste of 45%.

I won't necessarily represent what the end game paladin can do, since I don't have a discord weap, but the numbers should still indicate what exactly slay does for our DPS. Can make it simple and do it completely buffless so nothing external scews the results.

And I can also set up my G15 to automatically spam cast a nuke or two so we can see the differences those bring to the table.

[Maglor]

Ok. A few things we need to get stratight.

FIRST) Regarding my dps tests: One handed dps is still dps. Yes, it is lower, but it is still dps. Yes, we will use two handed dps in raids or such when we are not tanking. I am fully aware of the various knights advantages we get with two handed weapons. I use two handed weapons.

But for purposes of determining the difference between living and non-living dps, using a one handed as opposed to a two handed is not important. What IS important is using the same weapon and noting the DIFFERENCE between the living and the non-living.

I could have used a two handed weapon against the worgs and the skeletons. It would have been a much faster fight, with fewer hits, higher slays, higher base damage, etc. Ok. So my fights were more drawn out due to the lower dps nature of the one handed weapon. THAT WAS DELIBERATE. It allowed me to get in more swings, to minimize the wide range of randomness that a shorter fight would have allowed. Also, since I was in effect tanking (solo is, after all, tanking when you take the hits) I wanted to minimize the damage I was receiving.

Now, if you want to do the same using a two handed weapon, I am fine with that. Just so long as you keep in mind several points I had in mind. FIRST, keep the fights in the same zone. I selected mobs in the same zone to make sure they were approximately of the same power and ability. TWO, use the same weapon on both types of mob. It would be wrong to use, say, (and I say this just to get the point across) a Fiery Avenger against a living mob, and a Nightbane against an undead mob. THREE, try to keep it to the same class of mobs for both living and non-living. I figured that Worgs were warriors, so I selected the Skeleton Warriors as a non-living counter. FOUIR-- POST YOUR RESULTS! I explained what I did, in detail, what weapon I used, etc. I would hope that you take the same care and attention to detail (if not more attention to detail) that I did. FIVE -- do not do just one fight. Ok. We are all agreed on that. I selected 3 because one was just not enough. The fourth on that one skeleton warrior that hit me just as I was finishing up the other fight,well, it was in my criteria so I accepted the results, even though it skewed the results UPWARD (remove the fourth fight and figure out the average dps yourself).

SECOND) regarding my proposal that allows the derves to modify Slay and pally melee in general: The 200 dps was selected randomly, as an example. The point was not that they increase our overall living dps by 200, but that they modify both in such a way that THE NET EFFECT OF OUR FIGHTS AGAINST NON-LIVING MOBS REMAINS THE SAME (or is slightly improved). That I can live with. The decrease in the net effect against the non-living is what I would strongly disagree with.

THIRD) regarding the other pally ability I mentioned. I am going to stand behind it. We palies have been given the short shift on a number of things for a while now. Everyone knows that Shadowknights have been given traits that have made them stronger defensively as well as offensively. This is unbalancing the game very much in favor of the Shadowknight. Me, I am proud to be a Paladin. I ahve been a paladin for years. I want to see our class restored to what it was. Ok. So our fights will last longer, they always have. We used to be able to take it better than they could. I want that restored as well. Until they fixed warriors with their disciplines, we used to be the tank of course because we could both hold agro and take the damage. True, I was glad when warriors got their disciplines and the hate inducing weapons and augs, they should be the tanks of choice and these adjustments helped them out tremendously. But we should be more than we are now. I want our class restored to its rightful position. DPS improvement, if done right, will help, but we need that defensive improvement as well. Do you mind if I sing out in favor of my class, which I am proud of? Can you blame me for taking a thread that shows one weakness of the Paladin and crying out about another, equally important glaring weakness? I hope not!

Paladins from the beginning were the defensive tanks, the ones designed to take it. Yes, early on it was the spells that did it. Now, it should be aa's that do it. We have healing aa's, yes, that certainly helps. But we need some mitigation aa's above and beyond what the shadowknights get as well. Ok, let the warriors have them too, I am fine with that. Just keep them out of the shadowknights reach. I want the distinction to be there. I want others to give us more in-game respect than for them to say -- oh, a paladin. True, there are those who do respect us. But there are those who look at our dps and our weakness (now the weakest of the three tank classes) and ask why do paladins exist? What can they tank? What can they fight? What can they do? Well, I want it fixed. That is why I added it in. Hense my proposal.

Anyway, I have given my poroposal. You may quibble with the details, but answer me this. Do you disagree with my proposal that living dps and slay can be adjusted SO LONG AS THE NET DPS AGAINST THE UNDEAD REMAINS THE SAME (or is slightly improved)? I should hope not. Do you disagree with my desire that we get a few additional defensive aa's to offset the shadowknight offensive aa's? I should hope not. Tell me that the basic proposal is wrong. Then we will have an argument. But to disagree on details, while agreeing on the basic proposal, well, that is not an argument. Just a minor disagreement. Besides, we all know that in the end, it will be the Sony Dev's who deside how much the two are adjusted. If I can get them to agree to leave the net undead dps alone, to adjust both so the net non-living dps remains the same, I will live with that.

[shiftie]

[frocus]

Should be able to start running parses today once I download a new parser My comp crapped out a couple days ago and laptop lags to much for accurate parses but picked up a new machine and have it set up patched etc now just need to grab a parser. For consistancies sake are fors here using Tango or gamparse. I liked em more than yalp but never bothered getting newer versions when old HD crapped out since I had Yalp on secondary HD.


Edit: I'm not even close to top end tho will on be at fero/cleave 3 using fabled lance from earth so there are no procs screwing up the numbers.

Editx2: Or I can run the parses with Fabled spear of Fire and do a second comparison with an SK using that fabled pet weap. Just for a pure /autoattack parse comparison but was unable to get SK the lance from earth.

[Vaindolf]

We have shown several times what and where end game pally dps stands today. And i think Devs are aware or they just ignorant or something.
We are basically lower dps then mage pets today =)

[knytul]

it doesnt matter. what i personally am looking for is 10 parses from Monk and Paladin, both having Cleave 8, Fero 7, Accuracy 150, and a weapon with NO Proc on it. Also the ONLY buff used, is a haste pot. 10 parses of Slay undead (0-9). Im tellin ya when we get this with a minimum of 4 hours per parse, we will answer every question we have atm. If u need to know what to put up here on the parsed data, see the stuff i posted in parsed data.

[Brohg]

Monk?

and you probably mean Cleave 9

[Normy]

Adding parses to the parse section of these boards for observation. I didn't want to inflate this topic even further by posting them here. I will get all I can posted as I have time to run it.

[Ughbash]

Monk Parse.

This came out lower then I expected.

Max AA, only buff is Shaman haste (which combined wht 45% haste brings me to max haste).
Weapons:
Primary: Flesh Scourge with Blood Drinkers Bone Fragmetn as aug (+3 damage and lifetap) 58/18.
Secondary: Prismatic Fistwrap with Crsytal Embedded Discord stone (+4 damage) 64/20.
Accuracy maxxed
CE maxxed
Attack Maxxed
Fero 7
Cleave 8
Strikethorugh Maxxed

Magelo:

Against Test 85 from the front 85 was not attacking so no riposte damage.

Damage by____ Total_________Time_______DPS______Hits_______ Avg Hit
Eaglese _______24901058 ____19628______1498______100382____ 292

Again this is AFK dps and odes nto include any discs or kicks, this is just weapons. In real world group situations he will be more dps.

[boukk]

Auto attack afk parse are useless, they re not representative of reality, a monk can sustain whorl/sinergy disc and gain quite decent dps from kick.
You need to compare what people have aivable if you want a representative parse.

[Ughbash]

[Hulkling]

AFK parsing is fine for sustained DPS. We can easily find out Monk kick DPS, and again can parse burn DPS. 1 step at a time. Compare sustained Vs sustained first, then go from there.

[knytul]

please people, if u have no idea whats really going on here, dont come in here saying "XXX data is useless"...We know what were doing, and we know what were asking for. If u dont know, just sit back and watch and learn.

[knytul]

Normy, u didnt use ANY haste. Haste was requested.....We really cant compare a monk w/ haste to a paladin without...

[knytul]

screw it, maybe we can work with no hasted data. Ugh can u do a parse with absolutely no buffs period? Including no haste.

[knytul]

with Gena and Normy both doing it, we can have comparatible numbers to work with too. Keep it up u2, ty.

[karkariace]

[shiftie]

[karkariace]

[Brohg]

Who's "we", karkariace? You say we don't have time to waste, but what "we" are you a part of whose time is being wasted?

[Ughbash]

[Normy]

I'm running all mine without any buffs, and will be happy to run the high and low (live and then full slay) with a haste on it, althouth really adding any buffs is still not a perfectly controlled environment. Just because its commonly available doesn't mean its a given to actually have. /shrug. But I can continue to build from whatever.

[knytul]

Normy u just keep doing what ur doing. You 2 are on the same page as u should be. Ugh can do his next weekend.

[Hulkling]

[Genadinee]

Running the Parse with zero buffs gives the absolute (Maximum) minimum dps figure, adding any buffs will only make it higher. Once I have finished all the SU parses I can easily after raids get a full set of buffs then copy over and just do SU 9 to give a figure.

[Cellan]

[boukk]

[Normy]

[Ughbash]

After I get a 0 haste parse afk, I will do a 15 min or so parse spamming "Whorl of Fist 3", Flying Kick, and Eye Gouge*.

It won't be a good 4 hour parse like I would prefer but there is no way I can maintain concentration for 15 min tehre hitting the keys as soon as they pop.

Again bear in mind that not all monks have Stunning Kick or Eye Gouge or Crippling Strike maxxed, and they do not all have the hastening for it maxxed however now that endurance has been removed from this makign it infinitely sustainable it is fair to count that in to what a monk can do regardless of the AA expenditure. But this will show DPS for a Max AA monk.

Finally remember that with afk attack (weapon attacks) haste and other buffs have a linear effect. For example going from 0 haste to 100 haste should doulbe the dps. With special attacks this is NOT the case so please do not linearly extrapolate a 0 buff parse using specials to say that monks do XXX dps when buffed.

*Eye gouge is the most dps of the three attacks on the same timer so I will use it for the parse. In RL situations I usually have Crippling strike up not for dps, but to try to snare the mob if it tries to run. This also means that the way I play I tend not to pop it every tiem it is available to maek sure its up for snare purposes.

[Cellan]

[Cellan]

[Lisene]

[Normy]

[Vaindolf]

I can only speak from my experience from high end raids, where im constantly in our guilds parse channel and watching events after events beeing parsed. On burn mobs its not uncommon seeing monks at the 6-7k dps range where pallys are 1-1,5k on same. There is where the difference are the biggest. On long parses to trash clearings etc the difference is down to about 1k pally and 2,5kish monks.
Keeping in mind monks when we raid are most likely grouped with shammy and maybe bards, while pallys are in tank groups. Tho i happens from time to time we end up in dps groups also as group healers
Watching monks posts on boards on how their dps stinks makes me wonder, when our monks are in the top 10s on parses all the time, and yes we have very good dps players.
Perhaps the difference and numbers are way different in lower tiers tho, i dunno, prolly is?
Any words yet from devs about this "issue"?

[Cellan]

[karkariace]

The main misstake people tend to make, is confusing minimum dps and sustained.
Minimum is basically just using attack on for a mele.
Sustained is using everything that is avaible without runing out of mana or endurance until the Ten minutes mark.

[Wyvernwill1]

[karkariace]

Dev statement, not going to do the search for you.

[ZsaZsa Vavoom]

God I hate this thread. Every time I bring myself to peek in here, the signal to noise ratio is degrading, and the personal attacks are flying.

One of the great things about this board is that it generally manages to stay pretty civil and constructive. This thread needs to lay off the retarded's, stupid's, epic fail's, etc. etc. or it is going to fail to accomplish anything useful and is going to bring down the overall quality of these boards.

- If you are planning to post here, re-read your post. Leave in the parts talking about slay undead damage, leave out the parts talking about how much smarter you are than some other poster. It isn't that hard.
- If you don't like the work that is being done, either contribute yourself, or let it go. If all you are doing is telling other people their work is stupid, but not offering any improvements or any commitment of your own, you aren't helping any.

Your mods here try not to actively moderate. Please behave so we can continue that approach.

[Wyvernwill1]