Slay Undead Poll: Dev requested feedback

[Brohg]

[shiftie]

Brohg I can't believe I'm going to say this but thank you!

[Saintsaens]

Well, Brogh beat me to it... The thread was actually halfway decent for the first 5 pages, then the SKs got here... Unfortunately, I don't know if I'm aware of a way to stop SKs from reading our boards, because it's a publicly accessible board for anyone.

[Imrahil]

Well, I don't midn them sharing their views as long as they are keeping it civil and focused on the topic.

The topic is paladin DPS and what can be done to bring it more in line with other classes. It's not AE aggro, healing capabilities or whatever else.

Regarding the knowledge of the devs about actual DPS in the game, I think it is safe to assume that there are quite a few areas in which they could learn a few things by just watching how a group of casuals, a mid-tier raid and a high end raid perform against certain parse mobs (granted, not many of those around these days for raid guilds).

There has been valid input on how we paladins think our life DPS could be raised without nerfing SU, now it is time for Nodyin to check for working solutions and come back with some hard data.

[Nyterose]

Brohg, I don't know you, but you have my thanks.

And Im, I agree.

I think its a volatile subject for those of us particularly that have played since EQ came out. Like it or not it IS a class defining skill. I would be more than happy to back other classes were they in same position as Paladins are at the moment. What comes around goes around. Believe me, it eventually does.

[Tura]

[Hulkling]

2001 is "from the beginning" enough for me.

[Nyterose]

Tura, you haven't played since POP and with all due respect I don't think YOU are adding to the subject at hand. If you have something positive to say by all means post. But please stop the negative energy.

By the way... The SKs have a class defining skill set and they have not had it since the beginning which was 1999. So good try but that argument just does not hold... water.

[Bonzz]

First, let me say that I am grateful that a Dev actually posted and asked, rather than just nerf it.... as has been the habit of the past.

/applaud

This thread is/was to discuss the Dev's proposal, not bicker and go off base. I am sure the Dev is readign the posts and giving them due consideration. Hopefully the Dev will post soon with some feedback on the ideas we have expressed based on our experience.

And just to be clear -- with the restricted choices provided, I have to go with A -- leave it alone.

However, as noted in several posts, Sony doesn't have the best record in "fixing" things without also nerfing things.

I can go into a pages-long laundry list of examples. Becasue of this, yes, we are paranoid that when a Dev openly says they want to "up" live DPS at the cost of nerfing Slay DPS, we fear that nerfing means making it negligible to the point of undesireable and/or no longer "cool" (which is what hulkling has pretty much verified).

DPS is DPS, all abilities, etc. included. A Paladin doesn't have to target themselves to heal if they use the right spells (albiet more mana costs), but the fact is casting does take away from DPS (you don't attack while casting).

I felt the Dev was failing to consider a few things like Slay being a random proc (you can't count on it), MOB mitigation plays a role (it reduces damage), base damage plays a role (it's a multiplier), undead targets are limited these days and so on.

So, I figured the Dev's had intentions of making changes... or else we would have to continue to live with the low DPS on non-undead... our choice, even if not much of one.

I feel that even if the increase in live DPS also increases the damage done by Slay, that MOB mitigation, etc. would balance that out (face it, the percentage of MOB's total HP that Slay does on Hi-End MOB's these days, is not near what it used to be in days gone by).

Thus, I feel increasing the live DPS should not even be given a second thought as to how it affects Slay.

Further, other melee types do significant damage and casters do ungodly damage. The "balance" here (I suspect) is intended for group roles, where you got your meat shield, your healers, your utility players and yes, your nukers.

In the solo setting (which more and more the way the game is going with less server populations and game changes catering to non-raiding/soloing with mercs....), the balance is extremely unfair. Many other classes can go out and solo Yellow and even red cons... and in kill them relatively fast (and even more than one at a time). Try that as a Paldin and you are suicidal... and even if you did mange to kill one, it takes forever.

Still, it seems Sony Polcy that to fix something means to nerf something else.

My idea was to put forth a compromise that allows their "nerf' plus the increased DPS we would all like.

My suggestion was to turn Slay into a Hot Key (say, like Withstand) with a restricted reuse timer, thus cutting down on Slay DPS while leaving the Slay mathematics alone. This might save the devs some work in re-formulating both Slay and Live DPS.

I fail to see the chore in clicking a button, since the game is played in such fashion. Set up your Hot Keys and/or key board and this is really not that encumbering.

However, in reading about SK vs. PAL and the suggestion that thier better damage lies in their abilities (DD's, etc.).... I came up with another option.

Why not simply Increase our proc rates for our self-buff (live) proc?

And/or Increase the damage on our proc?

Procs don't play into Slay. Procs don't require an increase in base damage.

This way, base DPS is not finagled with and Slay is not nerfed at all.

Our DPS is increased by our increased proc rate/damage to live MOB's.

[Occam]

[frocus]

As much as turaylon is annoying he is right. A dev came asked us for information and the vast majority of us instead of supllying the dev with Ideas we feel would work for the community have all cryed to save eyecandy. I enjoy killing undead Occasionally but would much perfer losing slay undead to increase my dps on the targets I usually go out and kill. Last time I went on an undead farming spree was before Christmas. Their are few if any viable undead in recent expantions. SoD is everyones example but Sod has undead in tier 3 the mid tier same as SoF had in HoS a tier 2 of 4 zone can't think of any significant undead in tier 3 or 4 SoF. Turaylon at least, amongts his rant over the way the Pally community was behaving in regards to Nodyin's questionm, included an Idea for a way to increase pally dps. This is more than I have seen from a large number of paladins on the board.

[Cactuszach]

Devs dont even play pallys. It has been proven time and time again that the only people who care about paladins are the 20-30 or so that are always trying to save the class from uselessness. Its a 10 year old game, and as such I expect very little.

[Kneesmasher1]

[frocus]

Most of the Classes you listed as having higher dps are DPS classes we are tanks we aren't going to get DPS class Dps with our ability to tank. And the non DPS classes have to sacrifice a lot of their primary utility to get significant dps numbers.

Edit: Slay undead hasn't stagnated by its multiplicitive nature any increase to melee dps is an increase to slay dps. This is why it was considered broken in PoP. Why they resumed increasing it's effectiveness I don't know but right now we need to try and get out of this bed we made for ourselves with slay.

[boukk]

[Nyterose]

Boukk, when it happens like a lot of us believe it will, I assure you I WILL remind you of those words. Slay has stagnated. It is totally all due to luck ... the range can be kind or it can do nothing, nada, zip. Slay is not overpowered in any way shape or form. Personally, I get tired of people thinking we need to apologize for a skill we have. It should do more. And I totally disagree it is broken since POP. Its not broken at all. If anything is broken its Holyforge. Just my opinion.

So I would say leave it alone.

[Kneesmasher1]

[boukk]

[Kneesmasher1]

If SKS are making top 10 in a raiding guild then that guild must not have very many DPS classes.

Here's the point boukk, I'd rather have Slay Undead than mediocre DPS. I like Slay Undead. I could care less about mediocre DPS.

As I see it, this is what the Dev has proposed: He nerfs the hell out of Slay Undead because he has some unrealistic perception about how powerful it is, and in return gives us mediocre DPS and calls that even.

Apparently you think that's a good trade. I don't. I vote NO!

[Arny]

[Saintsaens]

Let me try to inject some logic here, since it seems to be getting a bit out of hand...

To those arguing that SKs are not DPS - you're also forgetting that most guilds also will NOT have the magically perfectly balanced raid force that most high end guilds shoot for. For example, my guild, which is raiding tier 1/2 SoF, had a raid force a few weeks ago that was 1/4 knights (both Sks and pallies), followed by healers and then warriors and DPS as the most represented class types that show up on the raid. It's no wonder that in my guild, SKs show up on the top parses, because we don't have the DPS classes showing up consistently.

I'm starting to think this is the dev's problem with judging a classes' DPS as well when comparing two classes - they go by the exceptions, not the rule. The only way to really prove that our DPS isn't good is to perhaps invite a dev along to parse real world raids from different guilds that are examples of a typical guild, not some made up scenario on test or beta server that is halfway done or bugged because the devs are trying something new. Is this possible at all?

Let's stop arguing about who does better DPS and focus on the subject at hand.

[Brohg]

For reference, current dps among the best players of the classes rank as follows, on nearly all raid events, which have typical durations of 90sec to 8min:

Necromancer
Wizard
Rog/Ber
Mnk/Rng/Bst/Mag/Dru (assuming druids have the luxury of playing as dps)
SK/Shm/Brd/War (same for shm here)
Pal/Enc
Cle? (I've no examples to reference of clerics in a dps mode)

My ranking is empirical. No test parsing, no fabricated scenarios. Real world shit. Shuffling of those tiers only occurs when gear levels or other extrinsic factors come into play. The totality of assumption for this ranking is that each player (including the raid leader when he makes groups) is trying to do their best. I suspect a couple classes (specifically warrior and enc) could jump higher with additional effort, but I haven't seen it. Germane to the current discussion, I don't believe any paladin could currently move up, because there's just nothing to try, no class features that are underutilized to take advantage of. Second Spire is literally the only dps tool a paladin has. Other classes change out spell sets, hit some hotkeys, bear down and burn out to pour out all they can, but paladins don't have any extra shit to throw down when it's appropriate.

[frocus]

Bingo Brogh. This is why I have a problem with some of the other pallies on this board who if we get a dps increase want one which doesn't involve button mashing or to take up extra spell gems. We can get some gains via aa to increase innate procs but the vast majority of any increase we get should come via sacrificing a spell gem. If a Shadowknight wants to dps he likely wont have terrors up but rather have dots in place of them. If the Druid wants to Dps he is Cycling nuke and fernspur and the like not healing or curing. Likewise shammies If you want dps your gonna sacrifice most of your utility to mem multiple dots.

[Brohg]

"A" spell gem? I'm talking like 4-5 spell gems or something. That's definitely where I was going with that, though.

[boukk]

[frocus]

Well I only said a Spell gem because upthread someone had intimated they didn't even want to give up one. Plus each spell added only takes a single spell gem hopefully they don't add spells that take 2 hehe.

[Brohg]

I myself compete with shadowknights when I've the luxury of playing as a dps class.

[Hulkling]

[boukk]

Ok fine, about 4,7k DPS without HT, which is still more than double (almost triple) of what a paladin can do on live, and more than what a paladin can do on undead.

HT is a good dps add, but it still is minor dmg in the sk dps arsenal.

[GrauwAB]

I have a feeling you are trying to compare apples and oranges when looking at DPS. Yes SK's have done 5k on burn fights with SOD raid nameds. The SK's that do this have the best gear available, max AA and all vet AA. Apart of that they are mashing their discs, dots, dd and all they have, emptying their manabar in a short time.

I can imagine that they can outdps a pally of equal gear even on undead. Mostly due o the fact that pallies are now very limited in what they can do dps wise.

However if you step a bit lower in the progression and look at people with 1k+ AA and SoD tier 3/4 group gear (I estimate that to be the average joe these days), you will see that slay does make a huge difference in the dps of the 2 knight classes. A pally will simply leave the sk in the dust when undeads are involved.

And this is what Nodyin talks about. If he leaves slay alone, pallies will fade out eventually even with the nice-ish crits they can do. If you let him tinker with slay and tune it down, while on the other hand giving you more tools (AA, spells, discs, whatnot) to increase your live dps.

If on the other hand he lets slay run free and increase your live melee dps in other ways and you would come close to sk dps... Say a high end raiding pally with max AA would then do 4k dps against live mobs, factor in undeads and you hit 7k dps. Do not tell me that is unbalanced. If instead he could lower the impact slay has and you would jump from 4k to 5-6k on an undead mob, that would give him the option to increase your life dps, while keeping pally dps in a 'normal' range.

No one is saying pallies do not deserve an unique ability. Nobody says slay should be taken away from you. However what Nodyin does say is that if you do not want to fall way back, slay needs to be dealt with, else he has no options or very limited and already stressed options. Be constructive, think what you would like to have instead of slay or as extra feature next to a diminished slay.

A few basic ideas could be:
- flurry
- dd proc
- a grp proc, recourse, buff that focuses melee and spell casting
- An ability that makes you hit for max during a short time
- An ability that makes all your hits crit
- a new nnuke line
- etc etc etc.
There are plenty ideas in this thread, try to think of some more. Do not turn Nodyin away like you do now and have him come down on you with a sudden nerf. Take up the bat yourself and have a constructive conversation on how to best get to where you should be, as pally dps on live mobs is way too low at the moment.

[Tuono]

im scared... but i vote

B ) Change Slay, and then have the freedom to change other aspects of Paladin DPS


im scared because slay is something more than "more dps" to us.. as is wrote in this thread.. SU have a "FUN factor" inside.. that is relevant.. BUT... im optimistic.. we saw good moment and bad moment for pally.. now we got some interesting skill and spell, but we really lack dps so i would like to see what the devs will propose/implement...

and imho a PET would be good in general for us
seems the fastes solution even if is NOT the best one.. will give a big boost in dps to casual player and not so good one to uber pally.. but will be liked by both could be even a pet like shinybob (ench) that cannot be commanded... (i repeat is not the best solution.. but they could implement it TODAY.. and we need upgrade now not next year!)
tnx for reading (and i like comment from other class too.. if they dont derail from topic)

[Ardnasc]

I would reluctently go with choice 'B' as the least bad of the choices given.

I'm afraid that if nothing is done - the 'A' choice that we will fade out of the game in uselesness.

Have Fun!
Ardnasc - Leader of The Long Riders
Officer of After Hours Raiding

[Caladel]

Im not against button mashing, but i think it should come in the form of AAs, or discs.

On general principle alone a paladin has no business nuking(with the exception of undead). No business dotting etc. So no i don't want some new nukes etc.

Beyond that, there is no room in the spell bar. Heals and agro and im out of room. Giving up end for instance and using it for offense instead of defense is perfectly acceptable. Giving up some defense in the form of going with 2handers instead of a shield for more dps is also perfectly acceptable. Giving up the core component of my class to raise my dps to level i should have by default, while fulfilling my classes primary role is NOT an option.

The only way giving up multiple spell gems for dps would be an option is if they gave us the ability to do higher dps then we should be doing by sacraficing our healing/tanking ability. And that's NEVER going to happen, and it shouldn't happen, that is not the paladin class.

[knytul]

im still not votin a damn thing until more data is produced. He wants to make changes, How does he want to change things. How much? go up on what, go down on what.....

[Coupdvil]

Still with Knytul on this one. Give us something 'tangible' to grasp onto and paladins might be more receptive to changing their minds.

[lasaman]

[Stephen51]

I'm not going to pretend I've read all the comments previously, I just dont have the time or inclination.

I haven't studied the stats, on who does what dps where.

I just know what I like, and I like slays. I'd like to keep them. I'd like to do more damage on live mobs, but wouldnt like to loose the slays.

Some SK's seem not to want a solution, calling us idiots for wanting to keep slays, feeling their dps will remain significantly higher than ours. There attitude (IMO) wont do them any favours when a solution is reached.

Would a solution to slays not be to cap the damage? Say 25k? So then any significant melee dps upgrade would not be passed on to Slays. SoE could then control the inclease of slay by use of AA's by upping the cap? Dont flame please its only an idea. Again SOE/you all may see the cap as alot higher/lower than this figure.

[Nodden]

[Stephen51]

Doh, I didnt think of that, as I said just a thought.

[Dawgrit]

I really would like to see more information about how strong the devs think Slay Undead should be, and how much live DPS they are willing to give us.

That being said, I am not opposed to changing the system. Personally I envision a change which would make Slay Undead into a paladin version of backstab (works from any angle though). This way devs have the flexability to make increases to our base DPS and our slay DPS independantly.

Ideally, after this change, Slay DPS would stay where it is currently, and live DPS would be upgraded to near SK levels.

That is my take on the matter at least.