Over There and the evolution of war films

[Izmalis]

So I got hooked on the TV show which is a fictional story about a squad of infantry soldiers sent over to Iraq. One of my classmates who just got back from MP duty in Afghanistan claims it isn't realistic based on the interaction between the troops whereas a friend of mine who just got back from Baghdad (combat virtually every single day- Ranger sniper) claims it's fairly realistic.

Aside from the fact that I find it hugely entertaining, what's fascinating to me is how the portrayal of war films has changed yet again in the last 10 years. All Quiet on the Western Front (a classic movie and book) was the ground breaking antiwar/anti-military movie from the 1930's but was soon followed by a slew of prowar propaganda films during WW2 and afterwards (c.f. any John Wayne movie) which culminated in The Green Berets. Clear "good guy v. bad guy" type stuff. Apocalypse Now broke sharply with the past and its apotheosis was Stone's Platoon in 1986 where the message was again not only antiwar but anti-military.

In the 1990's and beyond the message is changing again, with Saving Private Ryan, Black Hawk Down and We Were Soldiers all decidedly antiwar but empathetic to the soldiers on both sides of the conflict while preserving a strong streak of patriotic fervor that had its echoes in the films of the 40's and 50's. The Thin Red Line was essentially the last of the previous antiwar/anti-military movies and seemed decidedly out of place compared to its contemporaries. The other trend that really became commonplace in these films was their simultaneous treatment of the home front to let you know that soldiers don't operate in a vacuum when in the field.

Enter Over There and its treatment of the American soldiers involved in the Iraq conflict. They opted for the usual Hollywood grab bag of diversity to make the squad interesting but they at least made an effort to give their characters some depth. So many plot lines that would normally have resulted in self-flagellation of the military wind up just the opposite (e.g. shooting of people running checkpoint, sniping of suspected terrorist with his family, accidental shooting of civilians in midst of a firefight, interrogation of terrorist, etc... etc...). I could go on and on here with examples but I'm always stunned when they don't do the predictable stereotypical treatment of plot lines and characters. We seem to have come full circle and Over There winds up in this apolitical region of not really antiwar, but not prowar either. It's pretty much "pro American soldiers" which is a refreshing change.

The other thing I love which really started in Saving Private Ryan and Black Hawk Down is the way the scenes are shot. Crystal clear shots that are zoomed way in and convey all of the confusion and turmoil as you follow a small group of soldiers into the chaos of small unit combat. I think Ridley Scott is an absolute master at this and it's clear that director Bochco decided to follow the same techniques.

Ultimately what it lacks in realism it more than makes up in entertainment. Flame on.

[Krup]

[Izmalis]

Sadly I have not seen either of those two movies you mention. I also left out a lot of the big budget "also ran" flops of the same time period as neither groundbreaking nor influential.

I probably should have thrown Top Gun in there however as a huge throwback to the 40's and 50's. If a more pro-American, pro-military movie was ever made without John Wayne I have yet to see it. Hell, I nearly applied for air crew in the Navy just based on that movie alone- EA-6B for the win!

[Horomen]

Over There is entertaining, but not quite what I expected it would be for some reason...Its a good show but it just hasnt grabbed me like some of the other Series I am watching. Maybe thats the problem, I have a couple other series I watch religiously (Lost, Battlestar Galactica remake, The Shield) and maybe in my mind its hard for something else to compare since I like them so much. I do have a few more episodes of OT I need to catch up on recorded on my DVR (last one I saw was where they were questioning the insurgent about the theft of some stinger missiles).

Speaking of War movies/Series, I am surprised that nobody has mentioned Band of Brothers..IMHO one of the best War themes I have seen (and I have seen a LOT). I also agree with Blackhawk Down which has to this day some of the most memorable visuals in a war movie. I never got the impression that We Were Soldiers was an overtly anti-war film, but maybe I was enjoying it too much to notice...I found some of the characters pretty entertaining (Sam Elliott for the win!).

I would love if someone would make a series in the flavor of BOB but set on the Eastern Front - young squad of Germans feeling indestructible as their armies crush the soviets until Kursk when they realize they arent so invincible afterall. At least *I* would watch it even if the american public wouldnt due to the lack of americans portrayed in it (hence, nothing they could easily relate to). The US vs the Japanese in the Pacific would be cool too.

I wonder if we are reaching the end of good WW2 movies in our lifetimes though since the newer generations really dont seem to care as much about the subject. I, for one, will be sad to see the day when we no longer see them developed.

[Krup]

Ha! The second example I give was of the same quality as "Down Periscope," another Kelsey Grammar thespian-fest!

"Top Gun" was a fun movie - as I remember, it measureably impacted Navy recruiting back in the late 80s! I was in the USAF Aggressors during that time and used to explain my job to people as, "You seen Top Gun? I do what Michael Ironsides does." We gave our buddies over at the Top Gun school infinite crap about that movie!

[Izmalis]

[Horomen]

[Izmalis]

[Grendalkhan]

[haanzz]

[Qeth]

I don't watch too many war movies, in fact i've only seen a couple you've listed, but i just wanted to add that The Thin Red Line is based on a book from 1962. In fact there was a movie based on the book released in 1964, called The Thin Red Line. It would be interesting to see how they differed, but to be honest I'm not a big anouhg fan of war movies to watch them both.

Also there is a movie currently out, The Great Raid, it's a story of a raid on POW camp in the Philippines in January, 1945. It's suppose to be pretty good, and if you like war movies i'd suggest you go see it.

[Weyalan]

Do Dr Strangelove and Full Metal Jacket not merit a mention, or even Born on the 4th of July? Good films all, and each of them important in their own way.

[Izmalis]

[Krup]

[Hodur]

[Izmalis]

[Hodur]

[Melkiah]

Kelly's Heroes. although it doesn't really focus all that much on the war itself, sit till stands as one of my all-time favorites.

[Izmalis]

[Hodur]

[Helzik]

[Samanna]

[Izmalis]

[Boresville]

[Frakass]

[Wulfbane]

[Izmalis]

One other thing which I found fascinating (and let's be honest, endearing) about Over There is its treatment of Christians, personified by Angel, the black Southern Baptist who in a twist of fate is also the squad's sniper. Hollywood normally has nothing but stereotypical (and bigoted) disdain when portraying Christians. How refreshing then to see a devout, ordinary Christian depicted. I am continually in amazement that his character says things that the average devout Christian would say under such circumstances- facing imminent death daily and the grim reality of having to take life that may be innocent.

On a different note, last episode saw the squad's slain officer replaced by (lmao) an a**hole attorney. Now THAT is a stereotype I don't see Hollywood changing anytime soon. For the record, I give the lawyer a life expectancy of two episodes at most. Hell, the journalist barely made it two episodes- the lawyer will be lucky to make it past the opening credits.

And I still can't get over how apolitical the show is. How on earth the producer resists making cheapshot digs at America, the military and Bush I have no idea. The man has to be a closet patriot, a virtually extinct species in Hollywood.

[Hodur]

[Helzik]

Sheesh, call me naive, but wasn't Iz talking about the show being apolitical, not taking cheap shots, and portraying ordinary, hard-working military men in a decent and compelling manner? I would think that those of a liberal bent would be happy to classify the producer of such a show as patriotic, regardless of that producer's political beliefs. I know I am. BTW, I agree with Iz on most of what he says about the show. I've only seen a few episodes, but they have been very good and I've enjoyed them immensely.

[Hodur]

Izmalis has a long history of bashing the liberal media, accusing pretty much everybody in the industry of conspiring to turn public opinion against conservatives and Republicans. This was just another post along those lines. He is pretty clearly inferring that only America-hating, unpatriotic Michael Moore-liberals populate the entertainment industry, and the rare patriots who don't make cheapshot digs at America, the military and Bush have to skulk around the fringes of the industry.

[Izmalis]

[Izmalis]

[Hodur]

[Izmalis]

Okay, finally got to watch last week's episode. I think I need to delete this post as we've now returned to Hollywood meets Fox meets Girls Gone Wild - Iraq. Nothing new to see here.

The hot blonde gets into it with another hot blonde in a lesbian shower scene? That is so played- not that I'm complaining too much. Now I know why my wife was saying it was Melrose - Desert Edition though.

So where DID I put the Tivo remote...

[Krup]

I've been Tivo-ing Stargate SG-1 reruns from the Richard Dean Andersen era. That series should fall into your "Pro America, Pro-Military, upbeat" genre Iz. The Air Force approved of it so much the just-retired Chief of Staff actually performed a speaking role in one of the episodes playing himself (heh - saved off the Tivo recording to my computer, did a few "edits" and forwarded the results to him - he was "appreciative")!

[Grimdreg]

[Horomen]

[Krup]