Shaman groups in a Raid

[agog]

I was reading various rants on The Steel Warrior about what the ideal DPS group makeup is in a raid environment. The debate resolved to if warriors should be allowed to have a Shaman in the group or not. My main is a Ranger, #2 a warrior (so why am I here? #4 is a shaman...), and I was interested enough to read up on a few spells that I don't have yet. Could some one just glance over my logic and let me know if I am thinking about these three spells correctly or not?

The question is, "who benefits from these shaman buffs?"

Champion
Increase ATK by 140
Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 10%
Increase AGI by 140
Increase STR by 140
Increase DEX by 140
Group v1

(1) Players who are in the same group as the casting shaman
(2) who melee and swing alot, and
(3) who already do a lot of damage.

The principal benefit seems to me to come from the damage modifer followed by increased dexterity causing an higher proc rate. This buff implies that a shaman should be grouped with high dps players, e.g., for the sake of argument, monks, rogues, berserkers, rangers, and warriors.

Panther
Add Proc: Panther Maw rate mod 400
Group v2

(1) Players who are in the group targeted when the buff is cast
(2) who have a high proc rate to begin with (e.g., WA is maxed)
(3) Note that swing rate or other DPS is irrelevant to the amount of extra damage done by this proc.

This buff implies that the Shaman should cast Panther preferentially on groups comprised of players that have a high starting proc rate, e.g., for the sake of argument, warriors. I suppose pets with a high inate proc rate might be even better.

Lassitude
Add Defensive Proc: Lassitude Trigger rate mod 400 (proc's slow on mob)
Single Target
(1) A player in any group that is going to be the target of a mob's attacks
(2) who either wants to increase aggro or
(3) who needs the mob slowed

This buff implies that Lassitude should be cast on the main tank, as well as any off-tanks. It could be useful to kiters as well, but substantially less so. It is also a useful self-buff for soloing.

Conclusion
In a raid the Shaman goes in group with high DPS players that can benefit from Champion, but may prefer to cast Panther and Lassitude on other groups first.[/b]

[Hhrolf]

When we want a dps group they typically put me with a combination of rogues , rangers and maybe even zerkers. Only exception to that is on Vule when I am put with paladins to max out their slays.

Group panther is more about the number of targets that will actually swing, and tbh I dont consider proc rates of the targets. As a shaman I have managed to obtain 31 combat effects just as an additional mod on the gear I have looted, so I am sure most of our melee will have much more than that.

I try to keep lassitude up on the OT's especially on events like Redfang, but with a 7 min duration there is a limit to how many targets I want to keep it on. Main benefit atm of lassitude is the heal over time proc for extra healing, its believed that the slow portion is currently broken and not working as intended.

[Grumble]

The shaman epic click (1.5 / 2.0) is the main reason.
Panther (group) and Champion are used, but they can be cast out of group.

[WaringMcMarrin]

[agog]

[ThraallFV]

[Luthair]

[Brohg]

Raid group structure is also reinforced by the healing requirements of various classes. Tanks require major healing. It has to be fast and consistent and very powerful. On raids, tanks need clerics backing them in order to do their job. Certain situationally raid-critical roles like crowd control or script operators also warrant the "big guns" in healing sometimes. The classes of those folks vary, but they also get clerics if they're available.

The remainder of the raid is basically dps, divided into ranged (typically caster) dps and melee dps. Melee dps takes higher "ambient" damage in most raids due to random ripostes, AE Ramps, short range AEs, etc.; they are concurrently better defended personally against sudden peril by higher hp pools and the availability of defensive abilities (discs mostly, I mean); they need consistent healing. Casters take much less incedental damage than melee, but are in greater peril when they come under fire. Bad, silk armor and lower hp pools mean spot healing for them has to be more immediate and stronger. The shaman healing model, strongly focussed on efficient over-time healing instead of immediate power, fits the former. The druid healing model isn't as sustainable or distributed, but significantly more powerful in the immediate term. By design more fit for the latter.

The shm non-healing support role in dps groups is to click epic. It's significant damage boost to melee. All the other effects (Champ, Panther, Lassitude) can be cast out of group, they're not a motivating factor in group composition, though having a shm grouped with their targets is convenient for the shaman.

[Kianor]

[Veril]

[Ughbash]

[Kneesmasher]

[Brohg]

[Dakota]

[Beafly]

[Brohg]

[Kianor]

[Spetsnas]

[Brohg]

Low is right. Any ranger using his bow is a wasted raid slot that could be a necromancer who is even more self sufficient and group-supporting besides doing four times the dps. A little closer to home, that ranger could be a shaman, who would also do more damage out of that raid slot besides all the shamany things. Bow dps is so much worse than people give it credit for; really really sad.

[Tugela]

[Brohg]

[Ughbash]

[Tugela]

[Tugela]

[Beafly]

[Kianor]

[Beafly]

[Kianor]

[Beafly]

[Kianor]

[Tugela]

[Kianor]

[Brohg]

Yesterday's Veldyn's Shade:

[Name] = Intensity of the Resolute
(Name) = Glyph of Destruction
Fight Duration: 00h:03m:55s

Veldyn`s Shade: 801,312 (3,409)

rog - Rishethra: 492,404 (2,095)

rog - Mindori: 490,892 (2,088)

wiz - Tallie: 482,603 (2,053)

rog - Hotplate: 476,153 (2,026)

rog - Puttputt: 461,167 (1,962)

rng - Sebin: 445,742 (1,896)

rog - Occam: 442,158 (1,881)

rog - Nalassbob: 441,989 (1,880)

mnk - [Itaru]: 439,517 (1,870)

wiz - [Darnek]: 422,866 (1,799)

mnk - Xarlea: 383,643 (1,632)

ber(app) - Wadjuogima: 377,774 (1,607)

pal - Kruelcon: 373,434 (1,589)

rng - [Galent]: 353,427 (1,503)

rog(app) - Spinesnap: 351,758 (1,496)

pal - [Coupdvil]: 348,614 (1,483)

mnk - Tekis: 319,327 (1,358)

bst - Jupiterkitty: 291,295 (1,239)

shm(ME!) - Brohg: 281,945 (1,205)

brd - Nuchaos: 254,397 (1,082)

rng(slacker) - [Canis]: 253,221 (1,077)

brd - Fyrestar: 245,335 (1,043)

and all the way down here, our top performing:war - [Maneurysm]: 242,585 (1,032)

shd - Reshtal: 221,682 (943)

war - Baam: 201,542 (857)

war(tanking) - Manark: 199,085 (847)

mag - Marlyne: 179,598 (764)

shd - [Parasite]: 175,015 (744)

shd - Vasarious: 171,454 (729)

war - Davanx: 164,496 (699)


There's more attendees, but I stopped at the fourth & final warrior. None of these mofos is woefully undergeared, we're the top guild on our server. Notice even the slackest ranger (and boy oh boy does he slack, you have no idea) outperforms the strongest warrior. Sebin's & Galent's performances are no jokes, that's pretty much how they always place in these things: one right below the rog/ber/wiz, one mixed right in there. I'll turn that "pulling their weight" statement right around on you without hesitation: any ranger that is ever beaten by any warrior on any fight of any duration is the one failing his class; they're capable of truly impressive damage over the short and long terms.

[Brohg]

Previous Veldyn's Shades in more compact format, to establish a track record. The foregoing numbers were not selected to make a point, they're entirely typical:

4m35s: wiz-rog-rng-rog-wiz-ber-rog-rng-wiz-pal-rog-rog-mnk-mnk-mnk-rog-mnk-mag-pal-wiz-brd-war-war-brd-war-brd-shd-war-shd-shd-war

4m07s: wiz-rog-rng-rog-wiz-rng-ber-rog-wiz-mnk-rog-mnk-rog-rog-bst-Brohg-mnk-pal-wiz-war*-pal-war*-brd-shd-shd-mag-war (*both these warriors used 7th Vet on this fight)

4m20s: wiz-rog-wiz-wiz-rng-rog-mnk-rog-rog-ber-wiz-mnk-rog-war*-mnk-bst-pal-mnk-wiz(died)-war-shd-Brohg-brd-pal-shd-shd-brd-shd-brd-war

5m13s: rog-rng-wiz-wiz-rng-mnk-rog-rog-pal-ber-rog-bst-rog-wiz-Brohg-shd-shd-war-brd-war-shd-shd-brd-mag-enc-war

I've about a dozen more, but this is getting tedious. The trend is (I hope) very clear.

[Samanna]

Is any of this not listed at http://samanna.net/eq.general/effects.shtml#7 ?

[Ughbash]

[Brohg]

[Ughbash]

Good point about me not having my monk magelo for comparison, as a shaman board my magelo leads to my shaman who is admittedly a little on the gimp side.



For content that was on Anoyae Roe or however her name is spelled.

I belive the monk who was second uses icecracker instead of tonfa.

And we are 0 for 1 on brumals now, if your rangers have TSS weapons and your monks don't that may also effect it a little.

Just in our usual parses you will see rogues monks and wizards in the top category and rangers next and then others.

[Tugela]

[Brohg]

Show me five parses where all your nontanking warriors are over 1500dps past the duration of Fellstrike then. I don't mean to offend the gamewide community of treehuggers, but I'll accept that Sebin and Galent are just better at EQ than your rangers and are a little high, if you say they are. I don't think, though, that all five of our warriors are worse than.. well, you.