Sting of the Queen (Yummey)

[Kraklefur]

[Beafly]

[jdthomas]

[Kaledorm]

[Brohg]

Next lesson: objectivity and being happy about something aren't mutually exclusive. When something actually is good, it's possible to believe so without flipping on the fanboi/cheerleader mode. Nothing you wrote up there is news to any of us. We play the same game you do. We're not afraid of getting nerfed. If you read, you'll see we're not of the opinion that there is anything TO nerf. Go back and check, look for even an ounce of negativity directed at Sting of the Queen from anyone. We feel positive about Sting, even or especially those of us that do parse things, look at numbers, and form reasoned opinions. Rabid exultation over something like this has a flavor of obsession or insanity, not optimism. Though I am sure that Sony would be pleased as punch to have another dozen of you railing at the rest of us that we shouldn't look too closely, that the only right way to feel good is to do so without thinking, I'd quit [anything] before going that route.

[Jaraman]

[Grendalkhan]

[Brohg]

[Ungkor]

[Journae]

[Galelor]

[Unmei]

[Tugela]

[Kilgaroz]

[ophidion]

(all nuke aa)

...and thats with a bad focus.

oh yeah, RkII

[ophidion]

[Brohg]

[stashue]

[Scowls]

[Samanna]

[Brohg]

I almost always outdamage the tanks I group with, though not real dps classes. It's tons easier than it used to be. Summon a pet, run Talis of Panther, both you & pet melee, run Sting on every refresh, max out your crit nuke AAs.

[stashue]

[Jaraman]

I'm with Brohg on this one -- shaman are formidable DPS nowadays. If you're in TSS zones and still thinking shaman are not a DPS class, then I suggest you re-tune your mindset and your strategy if you'd like to be known otherwise. We have tools to minimize non-DPS time while re-directing aggro while we're at it.

Oddly tho, I have a hunch only a handful of shaman realize this. While we used to be near the top of the bottom third for class DPS, I'd say we're very near the bottom of the top third for sustainable group DPS now. And group panther is at least a healthy third of that. Sting may only be a quarter, but I'll give you a nickel if a necro is doing more than we are in fast burn groups...

[Brohg]

You'd lose that nickel. Ashengate Pyre + Dread Pyre + Demand for Blood own you bigtime. Necromancers are a real dps class.

[Jaraman]

Bull, in a fast-paced group, ToP + Champ + Talisman of Celerity + NoP + Juju + (2 to 3 x Sting) owns that necro. Forty seconds doesn't leave much room for necro-type damage. Necros are hard-pressed to bring near 1k DPS in these type of groups.

[Kilgaroz]

So we get to count hasted melee dps as ours now? When did that happen?

[Brohg]

Panther, Nectar, Juju, Stings are yours, haste most certainly is not. Champion you only get part of, since it's just an upgrade option to Mammoth. Even if you'd like to count it, I defy you to actually parse out and quantify it in actual application. The impracticality puts it beyond reach of claiming. Going back to those damage contributions that are yours... any damage you can do in any duration of fight beyond 0.6 seconds a necro will own the shit out of you on. They have two dots that each have base dps -ignoring both crits and focus- in excess of our best dot -with- crits and foci. We have our 18sec refresh wünder-rain SotQ, they have a no-refresh nuke with an amplifying effect on the dots. In place of shaman healing clicks from Tacvi & Vishimtar & epic, they have damage clicks. If you're running your logs in the same group, then Necro + Spectre (double+ dps of doggie already) get the same damage from Maw procs that you + doggie do. The boost to melee dps from shm epic is something you didn't mention, but necromancers mimic that pretty well by boosting spell damage with Mind Flay for the group.

Shaman are amazing. I should know. I'm one of those that pioneers such rediculous situations as putting out 370ish dps while being the only non-melee in a Frostcrypt group for 3-5 hours, or soloing at Ashengate zone in while waiting on my group. But don't be a fanboi with rediculous assertions that while doing all that we're capable of we're also outperforming other classes in their specialties. Necromancer is a real dps class, and shaman is not. They may be hard pressed to present 1kdps in a fast paced group, but you'll be harder pressed to present 500.

[Veril]

Shaman are solid DPS these days. The more melee type targets the better we are for the group.

But we bring the whole package. Helaing, CC, DPS, support, buffs, nuke, haste, slows etcetera. I'm pretty happy where I am right now.

There are a couple of areas I think would be better, like another healing bump, and some of the -ve modifiers of spells, some of the spells chosen to be lvl 3.
On the whole, I'm pretty happy with where I am with respect to the game and other classes

[Jaraman]

TSS shaman are real DPS because of grp panther and Sting. Whatever concept you have of a "real DPS class", the damage brought to a fast group by a strong shaman is undeniable. With the low-end case of only one other panther target in group besides shammy, pup, MT, and necro pet, shaman DPS will rival necro DPS due to damage contributions on several fronts.

Juju + Panther (main tank) + Champ/haste >= Ashengate Pyre
Nectar + Panther (melee1) + Champ/haste >= Dread Pyre

Even in the pet department shamans pull ahead, once again because of panther. In a vacuum, spectre damage output owns pup output. In a group, panthers shift the favor to the left side of the equation.

Puppy melee + Panther (puppy) + Panther (spectre) > spectre melee

Sting is a golden child. Even at a 13s cycle, it still brings more damage than necro nukes, recourse included. Shamans can sustain chain nuking Stings over time, while necros are gonna be hating struggling chaining their best nuke in addition to shorted Pyres. You're much more likely to see 3 Stings a kill versus 3 DFBs...

Sting chained + Panther (shammy) > Demand for Blood chained

It's fun doing great DPS in grps nowadays. A recent EQcompanion parse shows Jara doing 485 DPS over 2 hours in Vald. But then again, that number is flawed, and doesn't account for panther procs from the rest of the group. Too bad there's not a decent parser that can display actual shaman damage properly. Until then, I manually subtract the displayed DPS of my group's panther targets and add it to the shaman who brought it.

[Ughbash]

[Skalor]

[Jaraman]

It's ridiculous to think who owns what DPS. It's pretty simple really -- the group does a good amount more damage when the shaman is there than before he got there. You can also see the difference by sitting out a couple of mobs and seeing how much longer it takes for that mob to go down. It's all co-operative DPS; even a rogue can't bring his DPS unless there is someone holding the mob's attention while he's in the back doing his thing.

Let's not get picky and quibble over who owns what. Shaman bring decent DPS to the group. That's all I'm saying. Less than some, but more than many others. I haven't grouped with guild monks or rogues in awhile, but compared with everyone else, including boxed zerkers, Jara is laying some serious smack down. Is that so hard to agree with?

[Skalor]

[Brohg]

I make a habit of logging everything in EQ. I have log=TRUE in my ini to make sure I don't forget; I generate about 20mb of log files daily. It's not ideas that I have that I'm presenting here, it's totally empirical. In groups I keep Talis of Panther up 100% of the time (meleeing myself, plus doggie), chain Sting, and use Nectar and Veng. of Ahnkaul (Veng is only ~5dps less than Juju thanks to my magic focus being 50%, so I run it for efficiency). I have every DPS aa there is to back up my casting, and 60%-to-72 focus for the three poison spells. I even keep Spear of Ahnkaul up when there aren't other casters to benefit from Malis. In short, I'm 100% sure I'm doing all in my power to pour out dps.

Since Talis of Panther, I stay in melee range full time, so I know I'm capturing all the damage done in my logs. Our damage output compares favorably with tanks who are tanking, is respectable (meaning a bit over 2/3rds) of hybrid dps classes like ranger/beastlord/bard, and is totally blown away by real dps classes.

Your math is way off on those dots, too. Each Panther target is about 70dps. That plus the focussed dps of one of our dots is indeed higher than one of the heavy necro dots, but only if the necromancer doesn't have any focus or crits. You're nearly 100dps short on the shaman side of every one of those equations.

[Scowls]

[Samanna]

[Yesak]

What hes saying is that he switches eye for nukes and keeps the shield equiped for the DoT focus I think.

[Boleslav]

[Jaraman]

[Jaraman]