Mage envy?

[Valdemar]

Been leveling up my wife's Mage since my return to the game. The hope was that we could place this character on a third account to add DPS to our normal Bard + Shaman duo. Many of the things I've read on this board and others led me to believe that Mage air pets would be the ultimate in damage mitigation through the stun proc.

Right now, the Mage in question is level 60 and I've been going through the PoP zones farming for Ethereal and Spectral parchments. I've also stopped leveling the Mage here at 60 in order to get some AAs.

But here's the issue. ALL, and I mean ALL, the mitigation and DPS in the group is coming from the Shaman. If it weren't for slow and panther and Dots, the Mage would have to do a mana dump in nukes to survive and match the DPS from the Panther procs alone. Mage pet DPS is higher than shaman pet DPS but not super huge - not at this level anyway. When fighting as a duo, I try to conserve mana on both toons so that I can chain pull and keep enough reserve for adds, so I do not use a lot of nukes in normal fights. I pull with Maloxxxx, sic pet, cast the Elemental Dot and a nuke or two - nothing more. So, I admit that the Mage is not contributing the full potential. However, the stun proc from the air pet is simply not matching the hype I've heard about damage mitigation. It doesn't proc often enough to have more than a minor effect. Slow and Cripple are what is doing all the damage reduction, not the stun proc.

I've also soloed the Mage using the air pet and I find it is the same story. The stun doesn't proc often enough to seriously reduce damage. I find it is better to use a water pet for the added DPS and burn it down to simply kill the mob faster. Also, I find that when soloing, mobs go down about as quickly for my Shaman as they do for the Mage, but with a LOT less mana expended. I dunno, I'm just not seeing the uberness of Mages and specifically the epic game-changer of the air pet stun. In fact, one of the old school tricks I used to use for my shaman pet was to farm Gnoll Hide Lariats outside Paw because the proc stun. I find that my pet with a couple of GHLs will proc stun more often than the air pet does. This is anecdotal evidence, but the difference is clear enough that I can state it as fact.

Now here are the questions. Are my observations consistent with others? And does the air pet become better at reducing damage through stuns at higher levels? Am I missing something?

Regards,
Valdemar

[Kruzar]

Having just leveled up a mage.. I will admit there are some times when the pet is a little spotty, but this pet becomes a beast at higher levels... I just recently got the 81 air pet, and I am able to a lot with it that you can't do with lighter tanks. It tanks better than my Journeyman merc tank in just about every instance... so just keep leveling.. I think the 66 pet is better than the 61.. and then they just keep getting better..

Also.. make sure you are getting your pet focuses... at high levels this is major...

[Valdemar]

Thanks Kruz!

I'll keep plugging, but I've been led to believe that Shaman slows were laughably unnecessary because air pets would stun everything into minimal damage. While that may sound exaggerated, those are the kind of posts I've been reading while researching this point. My experience has been the opposite and more importantly, I don't see that my Shaman slow will become obsolete for quite some time - not unless air pets become super stunners sometime in the 60s.

I understand the paradigm on damage mitigation shifts considerably from 65 to 85, but I just don't see that pet stuns are going to obviate the need for Shaman/Enchanter slows anytime in my near future. I guess I'm just miffed over the misleading hype.

Frankly, I hope to see your situation where I can count on the air pet to mitigate well, but right now, all the mitigation/damage reduction is from the Shaman.

Side note, got the defiant summoners ring from the items vendor in PoK so Mage pets are stronger than normal, but the proc rate on stun does not seem to be different for focused air pets, only HPs and DPS.

Regards,
Valdemar

[Scalia]

Random thoughts:

If you want to stop leveling and farm AAs, it is generally advisable to do so right after getting a new pet. In your case it's level 61 when you get a shiny PoP era pet.

The 50s are a notoriously bad time for Mages, so the 61 pet will be a significant increase in power.

If you want to feel powerful as a level 60 mage, you'll have to go to an era-appropriate zone like Charasis.

As others have said, Mage pets will become better and better over time and Shaman slows will be increasingly mitigated. In addition, healer mercs generally scale up better than tank mercs, so it's better to have a pocket healer/rezzer/buffer than a pocket tank at higher levels.

[Huurgh]

Please do not make comments on mage pets, based on lvl 60!

Basically mage pet got their upswing SOF and later. If you want to feel mighty at 60, go and do your epic!

[Kruzar]

Just to add a little additional comment... for my mage... I primarily used a Tank Merc to level this guy up faster than just using my pet as the main tool... Even through the 60s the Tank merc is a very viable tank without a healer, and you can wipe out areas pretty easily... just make sure you are fully buffed. I have not focused much on AAs, and now I am catching up in that area. My first goal was 81.. the other pets below that are good.. but 81 is the pet most mages use and really farm with.

Right now when I 2 box.. my shammy is mostly on dps duty... so there is a pretty big difference in the amount of damage the mage pet takes when it is stunning.. I do still try and slow the mob, but it is not my first duty on my shammy, and I will toss in a spot heal from time to time.. but most of the time I am doing the Panther line, Dotting, and tossing in a nuke on the shammy.. the mage is keeping the pet going, and nuking pretty much to my heart's content.. but since it is 2 boxing I know I am not fully maximizing the dps.

[Valdemar]

[Valdemar]

Thanks Kruz.

Your additional information is helpful. I'll keep plugging along. I need to stay in PoP zones for the spell scroll drops for the Mage, and its a good time to catch up on AAs since I have neglected that area. But, I appreciate your insights. It is good to have them since you are doing Shaman + Mage also.

Regards,
Valdemar

[Kumudil]

some thoughts:
As long as you are low on AAs, try firepet if looking for dps. Firepets gain almost nothing dps-whise from AAs, as they do their main damage from nukes. To offset that, their base (non-AA) damage is well above all the other pets. Try to tank close to the firepet, so you get the additional meeledamage as well.

Damage-mitigation by stuns from airpet is about 30%. At low levels the shamans slow mitigates 75%. As long as you are midrange in levels, the slow will trump airpets stuns by a margin. With SOF the big mitigations of slow begun where also the groupmobs started to mitigate slow like former raidmobs.

If you want your magepet to tank for you, you will need:
-the best petfocus you can get your hand on
-most of the pet-AAs (atleast lateron)
-your RS-pet (first one is lvl 70 if I remember well)

Mage felt that their pets have stagnated a long time. Finally the devs agreed, so with lvl 76 the pets got a big boost to catch up. If you can hold yourself back, get as much AAs now as you can. But any AA you feel you should have and you don't when you reach lvl 76, stop there and get it.
Unless you reach 76 your pets won't feel that greate.

Once you got your RS-pet and you want to pettank, you will throw out RS-pets as often as you can. That's not manaefficient, but RS-pets are greate in fetching aggro from your main-pet while dealing also damage. As long as RS-pet tanks, your mainpet has time to be recovered by heals.

Airpets stuns are not predictable. They do not simply stun at "/pet attack" and than regulary every 12 seconds. So the mitigation from their stuns can be of streaky nature.

If you want the ultimate in damage mitigation, you need a chanter not an airpet.

If you duo as shaman and bard, something able to tank and dps will fit well. The mage is a good choice here.

[Huurgh]

[Tordail]

[zdrastvicha]

i have a 83 mage with 1k aa and EM V pet focus and a 79 shaman. my mage pet can actually tank as well if not better then my 81 pally who has 25k hp and 3600 AC fully buffed. also with the addition of the RS pet on a mob the mage has signifigant dps just with the pets. mages really start to shine as others are saying at around 76. Thats also were you start to get some really good pet aa's that greatly increase there srvivabilty. i would recomend you level at the pace you want but be sure to stop at those all important pet levels and get all the pet aa's you can then continue to level

[Scalia]

[Lestumpette]

Of all the non-shaman classes, the only one I've maintained a long-lasting attraction for is the Mage. This was born of ... yes .. pet envy. I still clearly recall the day I got my first shaman pet and was so H U G E LY disappointed in it. I was naive and expected my puppy to tank and not die in 2-3 hits when facing up to the mobs I was getting experience off. Of course I learned how to manage this 'weaker' pet and here I am today still a happy pet-using shaman

... and I still haven't made a Mage.

Oh and for what it's worth /nod Tordail. I didn't detect any of that in Huurgh's post either. and Huurgh I like your follow=up post. Informative and suitably measured, I also found it interesting. Valdemar I found your first post interesting too, but I have no idea where your 3rd post came from

Lest

[Beafly]

Kumudil hit the nail on the head.

Shaman slow was king in PoP.

Full 75% damage mitigation.

You're comparing apples and oranges.

[shamy60]

well i duo a shaman as main and an alt mage (4600+ aa's ) and that duo just rock hard.

what i did since i was using the mage pet for the tanking part,was to focus on the aa tanking ability / avoidance at 1st ect.

mage are so usefull for a shaman , can "EASY" coh pull (when u are used to it ),few times i need to cast 2 or 3 coh in row to get what i want,if i can't root it.

my mage is converteum flagged and got the 2 hander from there ( groupable , i even duo'ed him with 2 mercs ) and the augment from fungal forest (forgot names ) but the mana gain from those effect so rock.

2 days ago (august 2nd ) i pwled another toon with my mage in looping planes at north west orc camp (battlemaster area ) since the mobs there are higher level,can be dark blue up to lv 84 ).
my other toon was ""another mage "" lv 83 with few aa's (i use him to farm items like in vex thall ect. with the coh part ).

well most of my dps came from my "best mage" and was non stop killing,chain casting dd's , 2 or 3 mobs at same time (no mercs ,only delayed heal from mage ) to get better xp,and i chain killed for 1 hours non stop (since the weak mage had lotd running and another one gtg ) and i didn't had to med once (was casting the 3100 mana rumbling servant pet when i had mana gift tho (one mana to cast ) .

just to say : KEEP leveling that mage and u won't regret it

my mage got minion 8 focus btw..

[Jaraman]

Agree. I have a Drak mage I need to pull out retirement to bot with Jara, but I do recall their abilities dove-tailing into each other quite nicely. What you need is the 76 air pet and higher.

[Scalia]

[Brohg]

On PoP level mobs, you can use thrown snare potions.

[Huurgh]

[shamy60]

well when the mob are low on health (under 10% usually) they can start to run away.
u can pretty know where the mob will run away.
they are running away from the MT.
so with my mage / shm duo if i don't want the mobs to run away into adds,i usually put my mage pet behind the mob so they usually come to me .....and when they are near 10% hp i cast my best nuke from mage and shm,and if it's not killing them they usually running slowlier.
u can give pets some ''snare'' weapon like serrated bone dirk or obtenebrate sword.i got both but i never use them since i don't have any problem with running mobs,usually.

[Jaraman]

Anticipating that runner... with panther procs going on 2 pets and Jara while tanking, and of course DOTS, at just about the time the mob will start running away, Zachariah casts a nuke. When it turns, then Jaraman casted a sting. Mobs didn't get far.

So basically, nuke it down. Alternately, in more critical situations where runners might bring adds, Jaraman bandoliered in his Hammer of Spiritcalling, for the 65% snare.

[Scalia]

[Jarcey Heyokah]

I 3box 85 sham and sk with my 81 mage.
I noticed a big difference on the mage air pet at 76.

[Jaraman]

"Lesser races"... hehheh. Honestly though, running mobs weren't usually an issue. The snaring bandolier combo I had put the thrown snare potions into their slots, but the proc from the hammer worked reliably enough (getting very high Combat Effects was a priority long ago, since I started solo tanking giants in BOT).

But even if you don't have snare, you have root. Between VP and clicky and cast root, you can stop the runner in its tracks.

But the main tool is to burst DPS them down. At the end of the mob's life, all DOTS are running, both pets with panther/cougar... mage starts casting long cast big nuke, shammy stings the mob dead.

I tell you though, shamy60's duo does rock hard (Bobino + Bobipet). He's got the COH pulling down, and COH is very handy for moving boxed toons around. The air pet does the tanking, group DPS is solid, no downtime... great combo. After all my deliberation on what class to raise to 2 box with Jara, I'm glad I picked the mage.

[Valdemar]

Well, its been almost a year since I posted this thread and I wanted to revisit after I'd gained some levels, because the issue I raised about air pet stuns not living up to the hype was not answered here or at other boards like the Mage's Tower. Now don't get me wrong, I appreciate all the tips and advice I got here. People were very gracious even after a misunderstanding occurred, but I chose not to continue the thread at the time, because people were simply not responding to the original gripe which was that stuns from air pets don't equal the kind of mitigation that people were claiming. Since our Mage was only level 60 at the time of the original post, I thought, "Ok, I'll level and see if there is an improvement."

I've leveled and there's no improvement. I'll qualify that by saying that at least there's no improvement in my experience. I still get the majority of mitigation from Shaman abilities thanks to the Bard and my dogged play style to land some sort of slow. Air pet stun is just too infrequent (once every 12 seconds) and too often resisted for it to equal the kind of mitigation that's been hyped. For example, I've read posts here on this forum which said that an air pet was equal to 50% mitigation. Another said 30%. (I don't quote these posts because I don't want to embarrass anyone and I don't want them to think that I'm calling them out as a liar. I think the posters of these threads just got carried away without intending any harm.) Yes, mitigation from Shaman spells has diminished (mainly due to super-high magic resistance) and the power of the pet has increased accordingly as the way to avoid damage now is simply to burn stuff down before it can hurt you too badly and to absorb damage by keeping the HoTs stacked and running. But I'm asking where's the basis for the hype coming from. Was there some point in the past in some content somewhere where air pet stuns equaled 50% mitigation or anything close to that?

However, I don't have an ego about this and if there are properly conducted parses out there somewhere that show that air pet stuns are equal to X% mitigation, then I'll accept it. I've searched several boards, especially the Mage's Tower for parses but I can't even find a thread that directly addresses my issue, much less, air pet stun parses.

Anyway, PLEASE understand that I'm not saying Mage pet's can't tank or that the DPS is bad. My issue is about air pet stuns and mitigation hype. I've never seen the air pet stun equal anything approaching major damage mitigation. Most of the time, its a nice thing to have and might save a few hits. Thats been my experience.

Group is now a threesome - Bard, Shaman, Mage.

Regards,
Valdemar

[Ughbash]

You said you leveled up, does that mean you are 90 now with the mage? level 76, level 81 and level 86 are big for mages not sure what level you are.

What FOCUS are you using for the mage pet.

Mages have a buff spell they put on their pet (I forget what it is called) but a mage friend says he never even lets his pet out of the shower without that.

Since I see mages molo T4 named without slow.... Your observances does not match mine.

[Valdemar]

[Huurgh]

Well for your information Orb of Swarming Darkness has the Minion of Darkness pet focus, which if I remember correctly does not affect lvl 76+ pets at all. Which also means that your pet does not come preequipped with pet armor. Which is one of the reasons focused pets do tank better. So currently you are using a naked pet and wondering why its tanking is pretty bad.
Mage pets need love, in form of a lvl appropriate focus, and pet juwelry for even additional hp as well as weapons for their procs. If you want to go over the top I think you can still use defiant armor to push it even farther. Normally pets do not equipno-trade and no-pet items any more but defiant is broken and could be used at the start of this year still.

[Valdemar]

[Kevis]

I am not sure what you were talking about with 30% or 50% mitigation etc, but mage pet stuns do help. Again, not sure where you saw it was = or > shaman slow. I know a group of mages with air pets does a lot of stunning, maybe thats what those posts were talking about?

Anyways, get yourself a better focus. Minion of Darkness is from Luclin era. You should be able to get at lease servitor of scale from baz earring, or find a friendly mage to summon you a skull with EM 1 focus. No, not just for improved tanking, it also raises the pets lvl, max dmg hits, and all around way better. Does it change how much it will stun, dont think so, but either way, I think mage air pets are quite nice.

[Valdemar]

[Valdemar]

I thought I'd follow up for the benefit of other SHMs who box a MAG, 'cause there seem to be quite a few.



Easily obtainable focus upgrade for The Sweeper or earlier focii. The focus effect is good upto lvl 85. The randomly summoned skull from the lvl 78 or lvl 83 spells have EM1 which yields slightly better upgrade (pet power increase of 55 vs coil's increase of 45), but what a TOTAL PITA to summon those skulls! Plus the coil is a nice earring all by itself (at least for us casual non-raiders).

Thanks everyone for the thread responses. I consider the issue closed, and in my mind, I'm convinced that the reports of air pet stuns equaling or exceeding the mitigation that can be gained by slows especially, or even melee inhibitors and defensive buffs like the Preternatural line and Vie lines, or or even good old-fashioned AC, to be highly exaggerated and terribly misleading for casual gamers who may rely on the opinions and experience of higher level players.

Regards,
Valdemar

[Huurgh]

[frocus]

Get an appropriate focus and check the mitigation benefits again the gain of 1-3 levels from having a focused pet has a profound impact on the chances of the stun to land with EM8 focus the level 81 air pet easily tanks mobs in tosk with 0 heals where as heals are needed for earth pet to tank there(usually 1 mage promise). The impact of the stun is significant but the pet must be appropriately focused for the content you are in. Advice given in the forums only works if you look at the whole bit not parts.

[frocus]

Oh and the buff your mage friend loves and won't lave the shower without is likely the Iceflame line it gives pet a 2nd procced stun that has a small mitigation recourse which can proc off of the stun. That spell is pure cheese when tossed on Air pets and helps others a good bit as well.

[Sowslow]

Was testing this out on my mage just to see how good the stun actually is, as I really did believe it should provide a noticeable decrease in damage. I was expecting the number of swings/sec over the length of the parse to be less for the stun parse than the non stun parse but I didn't see it as it should swing less because it is stunned.
I increased the dummy melee speed 150 times, though I am not sure what haste that equates to so maybe it is off some. I didn't care about the accuracy or max hit or any of the other dummy settings as they are not affected by stun.
The second parse is longer but that shouldn't matter, I don't think.

Please let me know if I missed something.

Level 86 Air pet

/GU Tanking summary for NO STUN 27569secs: Gasekab --- Total damage: 3089698 --- Avg hit: 287 --- Swings: 26287 --- Defended: 7711 (29.3%) --- Hit: 10762 (40.9%) --- Missed: 7814 (29.7%) --- Accuracy: 57.9% --- Dodged: 1402 (7%) --- Parried: 1503 (6.5%) --- Blocked: 3170 (12.1%) --- Riposted: 1636 (7.6%) --- Absorbed: 0 (0%)

/GU Tanking summary for STUN 41077secs: Gasekab --- Total damage: 4608816 --- Avg hit: 286 --- Swings: 39419 --- Defended: 11573 (29.4%) --- Hit: 16066 (40.8%) --- Missed: 11780 (29.9%) --- Accuracy: 57.7% --- Dodged: 2060 (6.9%) --- Parried: 2307 (6.7%) --- Blocked: 4835 (12.3%) --- Riposted: 2371 (7.3%) --- Absorbed: 0 (0%)


1. 0.9534 swings/sec
2. 0.9596 swings/sec

nothing really noticeable.

[Ughbash]

[frocus]

Aren't test dummies stun immune? I can't remember if my last test was done on over the cap dummy or not.


And Sorry it appears Iceflame line is only Good resist ice nuke with the mitigation recourse no extra stun from it guess the staggers message comes from an aa or clicky on pet not iceflame according to Lucy.

[Sowslow]

I did not use iceflame. Pet had no real buffs besides cleric stuff.

I do not know about the dummies being immune or not, but it does look like that might be the case. The log shows the pet casting and the dummy being stunned, but they might have something preventing this from happening.

I didn't count the number of stun casts, but I went back through the log to make sure I had spellhold off and the log does show the pet casting and the dummy being hit. It continually cast for the entire duration.

I tend to believe something is off with the test dummies, as a stunned mob should have some noticeable decrease in swing rate.