Casual Rants

[Kozinad]

I am a casual shammy. Level 70, 250-300 AAs (I forget the exact amount), around 8k hp/1300AC fully buffed. Still don't have Q or Focus of the 7th (neither are ever for sale in the bazaar) but I plan to farm BOT Tower Bosses starting this weekend till I get both.

I would like my turn to rant.

What I was originally hoping: OOW - get tier 1 armor pieces for me and my buddies. This is mostly NC, then RCOD, then to MPG and RSS. Get everyone geared up each step of the way. Kind of like how raiders get to do it in the raiding sequence of zones, just that we have smaller numbers before the words "AC", "hp", and "mana". DON and Creator missions would allow us to fill whatever holes we had in our equipment with the goal of getting 100hp items for each slot.

BUT: The first big problem is that they lowered the drop rate of the rare drops for tier 1 armor items in OOW so that we could not get many of us geared up. 9 months of farming and we had 3 of us with a few of the slots (cap, feet, 2 wrists) filled. The drops just would not fall. Even 66-68 runes dropped infrequently. In 9 months raiding guilds can get 50 ppl time geared. We did not get even 6 of us OOW tier 1 armored. OK we only fought about 4 hours a day instead of the long hours raiders put in, and sometimes we did not fight on the weekends, and some days we just chose to fight elsewhere. But in the time we spent there we shoulda had these drops rotting because everyone had the drop in question.

Same problem in RCOD. We could do MPG and got some nice drops there so that was a bonus. Then DON and creator missions came out. OK here is our chance to make up for some lost time. If we can do em in 1.5 to 2 hours each (raiding groups could do em in 20-30 minutes), then we could slowly and surely upgrade our equipment and get acceptable xp to boot. Especially with the daily double-xp half-hours getting us a bit of free xp due to veterans rewards.

But we often could NOT do them in 1.5 to 2 hours. And they kept upgrading and downgrading the mobs. Sometimes we could get them single pulled, other times we could not. We wiped a lot. On the easiest days it was tough slogging getting through them, on the hardest days well we had some 5 hour missions (and a few of these we gave up on). On one of the more heroic things we did to win, I was a naked shaman. I majorly dotted Creator, and then I ran around in circles with the Creator chasing me while others nuked the Creator. Finally Creator died! - not many ppl fight Creator naked!!! - and my reaction was WOW WOW WOW LOOK WHAT WE DID!!! The reaction for everyone else was more of being defeated as we were well into our third hour of that mission.

DOD comes out. MMs.

A while ago I read a thread on the Everquest.com forum about how wonderful and well thought out and well done the final OOW boss fight is (with Muram I think is the name or something like that). At the time I did not think much of it except for WOW the developers really put a lot of thought and love and energy into THAT encounter. Kudos to the developers who created it and perfected it, AND YAY to the players that get to fight there!

EC Missions: The name of one of the mobs was "TEST". Other names were "Newbie Beastlord" and "Newbie Ranger" etc. No map creation was done as they took a blank EC map and added a few things for the mission. Initially it was a 5 minute 1 man mission - easily exploitable for AA farmers with 5 ppl afk in the bazaar or PoK or where ever. When they fixed it they went overboard and made it undoable by a full group of 6 in a reasonable amount of time. Neither effort was well thought out or tested.

Orc Missions: The rules for what made Vodrak finally go to the zone out were ... well fairly random. Changes were made on a regular basis with no warning or explanation. There were 2 criteria for winning this: protect Vodrak and get him to the zone out (ok that makes sense) - and, if you happened to be dead and zoning back just as Vodrak was zoning out... well tough luck no xp for YOU! What kinduva criteria is that? We got him out and that was the stated goal!

Fairy Missions: These were kind of ok for the most part. The make sure you stay alive at the end to get the xp "feature" is more than a little annoying. Over the course of doing a boatload of these missions there were many, many changes, and way too many "stupid" ways to not get xp for the mission.

But the main gripe about the missions overall is: THIS IS HOW WE ARE SUPPOSED TO GRIND OUR AAS ???? Initially (well after the insane xp at the beginning was eliminated), mission xp was 3-4 times what we could make killing in the normal EQ mode. Over time this was dropped down to maybe 2 times as much xp, and half of that had to go to an alt when the timer for missions was implemented. With the last patch missions are kind of done for except to get equipment.

9 months to get 6 items of OOW tier 1 armor.
1 week to get 5 items of MM mission armor that is about the same quality as the OOW tier 1 armor doing very very easy tasks.

This is not as fun as what raiders get, where they progress each step of the way, earning the good equipment they get, knowing that they WILL get upgrades (about once a month on average so I read). Raiders get interesting and well-thought out encounters that are pre-tested, and if you call support there seems to even be a special option for high-end issues. We get mobs that are called "TEST", stupid almost random win conditions, buggy encounters, and drop rates on items that are unconnected with the idea of "working hard for nice rewards". I participated in 2 DoD missions with my enchanter (also level 70). 30 minutes each, and 2 items that are HUGELY superior to any other items I have. In each case I was fortuneate that a group with a raiding quality tank invited me to help complete a mission and get the drop. However, to a certain degree this is an extension of the MM situation as with a well equipped tank these missions are no harder than say a fairy mission. OK my enchanter had to actually MEZ a mob or two, but they were still pretty simple.

I take a lot of pride in the OOW armor that I DID get. I earned that. Well, I paid WAY too much in effort to get it if anything! The DoD armor pieces that my enchanter has is superior in quality to the OOW tier 1 armor pieces from a playing standpoint, but is lacking in the pride that raiders get when they earn their nice upgrades, which is also the pride I have for my tier 1 armor pieces.

At level 70 casual style play is seriously broken. Its why the casual population is decreasing so rapidly. I have a level 70 shaman and and a level 70 enchanter, and the choice is to raid or play alts. I don't have the time to raid (rl interferes with EQ too much), so alts it is (and I AM having fun with my alts that are moving nicely through the 50s and into the 60s).

The "raider" vs "casual" battle usual revolves around the difference in gear. Frankly I wish they would put 10 to 50 times as much hp/mana on raiding gear as on casual gear, and just make Everquest into 2 separate games. And while the cream of the crop developers would make the top of the line raiding encounters, maybe at least we would have a few crack developers putting together good quality content that is fun and challenging for casual players (with raiders being able to easily solo or at least 2-box it). This would include a full testing team for us to make sure the content "makes sense", with most of the bugs and kinks worked out. It would also be nice if content stayed somewhat stable once it was released.

I believe that about 95% of the fees that casual players spend goes to buy developers that create the raiding content that is so well done. It sure aint buying developers for the casual player areas. If the casual players all go away, there will be fewer developers to make the high quality raiding areas. IMHO Raiders and casual players are - to a certain point - "in this" together. It seems to me that raiders and casuals should be able to at least be civil to each other. I am dismayed at threads where raiders and casuals call each other vile names all the time. Raiding and Casual Play are two separate styles of Everquest play, with some people suited to one style and some for the other. I see no contradiction or tension in that person A wants to raid and person B wants casual content. Furthermore, it seems to me that both want the same exact thing: enjoyable interesting content that is a challenge, relatively bug free, and without too many "stupid" things messing up the game.

However, rather than invest any more emotion in Everquest I am starting to check out some of the competition - Vanguard is one of them but I have heard about 2 more that are opening up late 2006. I am still hoping that Everquest for Casuals turns around, and it's almost a year before any real competition threatens them. Playing my level 50s alts is starting to rekindle what I used to love about Everquest. But what do I do once THESE toons get to 70 and have 200+ AAs ???

[Ungkor]

"9 months to get 6 items of OOW tier 1 armor. "

In 9 months I've sold at least 27 pieces of 120hp attuneable gear. And thats with raiding pretty much 7 days a week...

Maybe the Oow tier armor drop rates are broke. Perhaps. I'm not sure, I've never done them. Personally, I'd take the road of least resistance and do creator missions non-stop with heavy wos/mpg farming for attuneables.

Part of the challenge of EQ (at least for me) is figuring out where stuff is going to drop, researching it, and then going after it. There are single groupable rcod mobs, wos mobs, mpg mobs, etc.. that all drop armor equivalent or greater in stats than oow tier one armor. And even if the item ends up being something you wouldn't use, selling and buying is still a big part of this game.

My rule of thumb, basically, is if you aren't getting at least 1 major upgrade every 2-3 weeks, your game plan is flawed. Farming wos/mpg/rcod for 2-3 weeks, while certainly boring for some, would net you enough runes and items to sell that you could easily purchase crystals for DoN.

I've found that armor quests are typically the slowest rate of return on time spent. Boring farming and having good bazaar selling and buying skills typically gets you more gear faster. My alt berserker, for instance, who is played 2-3x per month, has 9k hp buffed, just from attuneable drops that I've tossed his way. He also has a 140,000 plat maul from wos that I snagged otw to a trial /shrug.

I feel for ya though. It is 100% true that 54 folks, raiding every day as a team, are going to intake more upgrades per week than a single group, but I think you really need to revisit your gear strategy if its taken you 9 months just to get 6 upgrades..

Another idea, is why not join a casual raiding guild that does 1-2 raids per week? Combine that with 3-4 days of grouping for gear, and you'd have a nice steady mix of gear sources. You'd also have a chance to complete your epic, as well as getting the occasional drop that is far beyond a groups ability to get.


Raiding <> hardcore

Raiding 7 days a week, 6 hours a day or more = hardcore.
Likewise, grouping 7 days a week, playing 6 hours per day = hardcore.

I'm pretty sure that both those cases above, 42 hours per week playing EQ, are going to have more quality gear than you, regardless of raiding. One of the major reasons, is the knowledge that 'hardcore' players typically have. I spend a good portion of my time browsing EQ sites and learning where good stuff is dropping. Do you have a premium allakhazam account? Do you regularily look for items in a certain hp range? Have you compared these to DoN merchant gear?

Do you know exactly where you want to group, and with what objective, tomorrow night?

Do you know which DoD missions drop upgrades for you? Have you seen the list of single groupable DoD items that are of PoTime quality listed on this site?

If you play level 50 alts, don't research gear drops, and only play half as much as me (and I have no clue, everything I said in the above couple paragraphs could be dead wrong about you and your playstyle.. I don't know you) why do you have any grounds to complain about your level of gear?

Another slight point:
" I participated in 2 DoD missions with my enchanter (also level 70). 30 minutes each, and 2 items that are HUGELY superior to any other items I have."

You have a level 70 shaman and a lvl 70 enchanter, and many level 50'ish alts that you enjoy playing, and you are wondering why your gear upgrades are going slowly? Hint: pick one character. Hardcore raiders have alts, sure. But about 95% of my time is devoted to my main. Hence, even without raiding I'd be getting 2-3x your gear.

------------------------------

On a different note, I'm not really sure why folks think much is different between raiders and non raiders (of the hardcore variety) since EQ started. I just flipped through old velious mobs, and looking at gear dropping back in the ToV days and so forth... and raiding guilds cleaning out ToV are going to have their guildmates equipped with stuff far beyond what was dropping off of anything single groupable in velious content...

IMO, absolutely nothing has changed between hardcores and casuals since the beginning of EQ, with one notable exception: The time to go from level 1 with cloth armor to level 70 with 1000 AA's and 10,000 hitpoints unbuffed is a pretty long time span. Starting from zero, it can take a long...long time. And indeed, recently on the SOE forums, a dev mentioned this; about the casual upgrade paths. The tricky thing about casual play, has always been that your upgrade path fluctuates, its never really clearly spelled out. And a casual player is way less likely to research as much as a hardcore player, which compounds the problem.

Raiders look at a zone and see targets a,b, and c for expansion X, and they know pretty much exactly what they need to do. A casual player, starting out now, or much later in EQ's history, is faced with an enormous amount of choices about how to go about actually playing the game. If anything, the Dev's should work on clearer upgrade paths for casual players, not necessarily better items in relation to raiders, as I really don't think things have changed that much in that regards.

[Derakahn]

[Scowls]

[Boleslav]

[Samanna]

[Fandele Longtooth]

[Keltsete]

going to have to agree with some of the others in that were definitly missing out some informaiton here. My necro/shaman duo can blow threw creators in about 1hr 15-30minutes. For you to take near 3 hours would mean your pulling mobs that dont have to be pulled. Considering you wiped on creator and ended up kiting I'm going to guess your tank the main issue having low ac/hp. Honestly not a big deal just turn it into kite groups until you can get him geared with don armor which will give him enough ac/hp to tank in there.

66-68 runes rare? Dual boxing I can pull in quite a few runes in a 6-7 hour period, they are anything but rare.

OOW tier 1 armor is kind of rare for some pieces but honestly I think at this point in the game there are only certain pieces you should be after like maybe the arms for improved healing. Focus effect pieces other then that why bother? A lot better stuff out there thats easier to get.

Something just doens't sound right here as a loto f the stuff your complaining about I've managed to come back to game recently and gear up on mostly solo or dual boxing with some rss grouping in betwene. And if yuou look at my magelo I'm anything but uber in fact I think your shaman has better gear then mine.


Also agree in that if you have a second 70 char that you don't dual box then that's part of your issue. The reason people hvae 800+ aa is because they only dual box or 98% of the time play one character.

[XeroOmega]

[Beafly]

[Kozinad]

[Keltsete]

[Sebekiz]

[Samanna]

[Robobuff]

[Henora]

[Kozinad]

[Derakahn]

[Xodar]

[Unmei]

[Henora]

[jdthomas]

[Kozinad]

Thank you JD. I will research that and track down those missions.

Thank you all for your comments, encouragement, enthusiasm, and advise.
Samanna don't get too stressed over the battle of the nerfed AA.
Or try not to anyways.

But I can see where this would make you want to take a break as well.

Not sure what I am going to do.
But I am rejuvenated and over time I'll have the next chapter of my EQ career all ready to go.
Maybe raid.
Maybe a set group of 6 that I always group with.
Maybe something else.

Who knows.

Thanks for reading my rant.
Thanks for the thoughtful and insightful responses.
For now I am tired and have a plate full of RL issues to attend to.

And for me
RL > EQ

And I'll be back.

[Xodar]

Good luck Koz, and hopefully you will keep having fun in game. To add just a small note to JD's statement, some guildies and I were bored tonight so took me (70rng), 70Shm, 70Mage, 66Necro, 67 Necro, and a 70 BL and kited 69.1. Every mob in the zone was red barrring 2 DB ones on the hill. Nothing summoned and nothing was unusually resistant, at least after malos/sinia, lol. Worst pulls are 1 that is 4 and and 3 others that are 3. To make room to kite I snare/zoned a few pulls single and we root rotted, then after it opened up I just stuck snare on 2 or 3 and head our necros grab one. At 70 it was 5.5% AA a kill in a full group (11% with devoted) and was a blast. We only had 1 death (Nec got 1 rounded owweee) and since there is no boss we got the group reward for 4 people who did not have it and a chest (booo bard horn and no /taskadd after win).

You seem to have a good perspective on things, and there is a lot of fun to be had in EQ in unconventional ways too.

edit: That was 69.1(hard)

[Scowls]

[Brohg]

[Scowls]

[Galelor]

[Kozinad]

Thank you Xodar.

I am searching around and talking with old friends.
Some that have joined raiding guilds.
Some that are working through the DoD missions.

Between now and New Years I will be pretty busy with rl stuff but by then I will be ready for the next chapter of my EQ advancement. Since the time I turned level 70 I have gained several hundred AAs, about 2k hp, and about 200 AC. Plus +6 mana regen in items and few other goodies to boot. So when January rolls around I will be ready, and even if it takes me a month or two to get set up with my new situation (either with a raiding guild or with a set of 6-8 ppl that I group with all the time) I am ok with that.

The experience you had with the DoD conquering the hard version of your mission is pretty impressive (and wow just one death!) and is much like what others are doing as well. Many are dieing a lot along the way but thats ok too. And my buddy thats a tank from what I can tell CAN tank some of the easier mission boss mobs - if it comes down to it we'll put in 2 clerics instead of 1 and do chain healing And as the tank gets more and more of these drops his own power will increase as well and we'll be able to do harder ones over time.

There is a whole new world of EQ waiting for me.
But until after the holidays are over I think my children and grandchildren will get more of my time and energy and effort.