Unmei, one of the biggest factors about Canni-ing is that it ties up your time for about 5 seconds, in the casting of the spell and the recast delay on all spells.
Now this isn't as critical in XP group situations as you can see what is happening, and you should be in a controlled situation. If things are dodgy you heal and then Canni. Of course, if slow was resisted you are chaining heals and there is no canni time available. You simply cannot affrod the 10 seconds before you land another heal (2.25 recast delay from last heal, 2.5 sec casting on canni, 2.5 sec recast delay on canni, 3 sec on casting next heal + some overhead and lag)
But on raids this canni time is a major factor. The 5 seconds I am spending tied up on a canni is time that I'm unable to emergency patch-heal. Of course if I forgo the canni in order to retain my flexability and response time then I'm "paying" for that by a mana loss. With my weaker healing than clerics and druids I need to be able to respond as fast as possible to have a chance to keep people out of frenzy hp aggro range.
Canni isn't A major factor of shaman spell casting, Canni is THE major factor of Shaman spell casting. I cast Canni more than any other spell, something like 5 times more than any other single spell - last time I checked this was what I got from parsing my log files.
as for your string of actions...
Malos on Inc
Slow quickly
panther tank
patch heal tank back up to health
panther others or DoT if there's extra mana
heal the tank maybe once or twice more during the fight
here's what I do.
1) Panther the puller before they go.
2) Panther 2-3 people while the puller is getting the mob. Do a Canni in this panthering.
3) Malos the mob on inc
4) Slow the mob
5) HoT and/or Patch tank
6) DoT, Canni and Panther when tank's HP are good.
Important Posts from eqlive boards
Moderator: Shaman Mods
by Jaraman » Mon Aug 28, 2006 4:31 pm
Unmei, welcome to the realization that shammy playstyle is largely proactive. Another concept you need to add into that equation is that shammy playstyle is very often non-stop. You pre-load panthers, a HOT, a rebuff or 2. You Malos, maybe slow on incoming before group engaged a full tic. You layer a DOT or 2 during battle, patch heal, and try to squeeze canni in there. The end of the battle may require another patch heal, or the start of the panther refresh cycle. Panther lasts 2 battles at best, so it, along with canni, is a huge factor in our time budget.
Agreed, you will seem to have a larger chunk of "golden" time to canni at the tail end of the battle. But besides re-panthering and reapplying a HOT, it may be time to rebuff. If the end of battles open a rather big window of time, more likely than not the shaman will be raining or nuking in that time. Perhaps, sitting to catch a breather for a tic. Truth be told, there is ALWAYS something a shaman can be doing at any given moment in battle or getting ready for battle.
The thing with canni is that it does take a significant chunk of your cast time away from you. By and large, it is TIME (and choice in priority of which spell to cast) that is the greatest barrier to overcome in consistent shammy play. Mana is also a factor if you push too hard, but having to canni is a big balancing factor in both time and priority.
With the new regen model, everyone gets to benefit from increased amounts of mana/endurance. This is the key point which marginalizes cannibalization.
Now, we don't have to assume that groups are gonna burn then rest. Any argument which tries to invalidate canni or the shaman plight by saying that burn-rest simply will not happen is irrelevant to the point. You do not have to sit out the entire 3 minute period to gain enormous benefit... shorter rest periods will not only help greatly, but will naturally occur anyway. Increased mana/end will be a fact, and that includes shamans, except for one glaring point, coming up --
In downtime regen, everyone is (will be) on a level playing field. It's a great boon for the game as a whole. However, that bonus mana/end spills over into uptime. Because of the very nature of shaman non-stop playing, we will get less chance to soak up that extra 20 or 40 seconds of rested regen that other non-buffing classes will enjoy. Shaman will still have to pre-panther, pre-HOT, rebuff, and canni. Therefore, we get less advantage out of the new system on 2 fronts... not being able to snatch quick bursts of rested regen, yet still paying high cost in both terms of mana and time that is part of the active mana regen model.
So, in effect, the new regen model benefits everyone greatly, but is of trivial benefit to shaman. The gap that used to be a fair tradeoff in sustainability is now closed between shamans and everyone else. But you know what? Everyone else is getting a power-up not only in the mana regen department, but effectively in their contributions DPS and healing-wise. But shamans still pay thru the nose for their varied but less powerful spells. It is this double-whammy which shamans find threatening.
And the clincher is, gameplay will likely get faster, which also is a bane to our proactive, "over-time" model. Which is why some necros are up in arms as well. It's not so much that shaman are losing out. It's that everyone else is getting a raise, and we aren't.
Agreed, you will seem to have a larger chunk of "golden" time to canni at the tail end of the battle. But besides re-panthering and reapplying a HOT, it may be time to rebuff. If the end of battles open a rather big window of time, more likely than not the shaman will be raining or nuking in that time. Perhaps, sitting to catch a breather for a tic. Truth be told, there is ALWAYS something a shaman can be doing at any given moment in battle or getting ready for battle.
The thing with canni is that it does take a significant chunk of your cast time away from you. By and large, it is TIME (and choice in priority of which spell to cast) that is the greatest barrier to overcome in consistent shammy play. Mana is also a factor if you push too hard, but having to canni is a big balancing factor in both time and priority.
With the new regen model, everyone gets to benefit from increased amounts of mana/endurance. This is the key point which marginalizes cannibalization.
Now, we don't have to assume that groups are gonna burn then rest. Any argument which tries to invalidate canni or the shaman plight by saying that burn-rest simply will not happen is irrelevant to the point. You do not have to sit out the entire 3 minute period to gain enormous benefit... shorter rest periods will not only help greatly, but will naturally occur anyway. Increased mana/end will be a fact, and that includes shamans, except for one glaring point, coming up --
In downtime regen, everyone is (will be) on a level playing field. It's a great boon for the game as a whole. However, that bonus mana/end spills over into uptime. Because of the very nature of shaman non-stop playing, we will get less chance to soak up that extra 20 or 40 seconds of rested regen that other non-buffing classes will enjoy. Shaman will still have to pre-panther, pre-HOT, rebuff, and canni. Therefore, we get less advantage out of the new system on 2 fronts... not being able to snatch quick bursts of rested regen, yet still paying high cost in both terms of mana and time that is part of the active mana regen model.
So, in effect, the new regen model benefits everyone greatly, but is of trivial benefit to shaman. The gap that used to be a fair tradeoff in sustainability is now closed between shamans and everyone else. But you know what? Everyone else is getting a power-up not only in the mana regen department, but effectively in their contributions DPS and healing-wise. But shamans still pay thru the nose for their varied but less powerful spells. It is this double-whammy which shamans find threatening.
And the clincher is, gameplay will likely get faster, which also is a bane to our proactive, "over-time" model. Which is why some necros are up in arms as well. It's not so much that shaman are losing out. It's that everyone else is getting a raise, and we aren't.
Last edited by Jaraman on Mon Aug 28, 2006 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by Giac » Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:02 pm
The downtime is not eliminated, merely reduced. Is it reduced sufficiently to make doing these things worthwhile when they were not before? Probably in some situations where it was close before, but I don't think the swing is going to be very noticable in group content.[/quote]
3.5 minutes from OOM to FM regardless of your mana pool. You call that "merely reduced", when this system is a scaling one? How long does it take to regenerate even 10k mana in a group nowadays? 15 minutes?
And yeah, all the boxers, who were not able to play their Shaman bot as effectively, this will be a boon for you. So I guess you guys can rejoice, as you can now just sit on your ass instead of working for it.
3.5 minutes from OOM to FM regardless of your mana pool. You call that "merely reduced", when this system is a scaling one? How long does it take to regenerate even 10k mana in a group nowadays? 15 minutes?
And yeah, all the boxers, who were not able to play their Shaman bot as effectively, this will be a boon for you. So I guess you guys can rejoice, as you can now just sit on your ass instead of working for it.
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by otakuryoga » Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:44 pm
from the monkly-business boards
Quote:
Also, Shm/Necro spell costs are based on the fact that both classes regen mana faster then other casters. While they still have an edge during combat, perhaps their spells should be revisited as with this change a Wizard/Mage can go full burn and kill a lot more per hour then a Shm.
Rashere's response on this was he won't do anything about relitive nerfs. He just said shamans and necros will also get the benifit and they are not losing anything so it is only a relitive loss.
yay us.....they worry and moan about making sure our heals are balanced vs our slowing.....
but when this gets implemented the fact that EVERY ONE of our spells is balanced vs our superior mana regen somehow doesnt mean shit to them
yes we get the advantage of resting regen just like every pther class....the other classes get 10 foot ladders we get a 1 foot ladder and should be satisfied
Quote:
Also, Shm/Necro spell costs are based on the fact that both classes regen mana faster then other casters. While they still have an edge during combat, perhaps their spells should be revisited as with this change a Wizard/Mage can go full burn and kill a lot more per hour then a Shm.
Rashere's response on this was he won't do anything about relitive nerfs. He just said shamans and necros will also get the benifit and they are not losing anything so it is only a relitive loss.
yay us.....they worry and moan about making sure our heals are balanced vs our slowing.....
but when this gets implemented the fact that EVERY ONE of our spells is balanced vs our superior mana regen somehow doesnt mean shit to them
yes we get the advantage of resting regen just like every pther class....the other classes get 10 foot ladders we get a 1 foot ladder and should be satisfied
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by Mammoth » Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:28 pm
I actually registered just to post about the downtime changes. My points, I'm sure, have already been made by other people, but I just want to make sure they are seen. My concerns center mostly around the low-mid level shaman, which is very important if SOE indeed nets more new players with these changes, as they have stated.
1. This kills root rotting as a "growing up" tactic. I know high-end shaman don't make much use of it, but many that are below 60 do. I just came back to EQ from a 2-3 year hiatus, and am rolling up a fresh shaman. Root rotting was the absolute most efficient way for me to solo all those years ago, and as soon as these changes go live, that won't be the case anymore. It will always, always be better to blow through the mana and sit, especially if you can time it to where your buffs fall at about the same time your mana reaches 0 (at earlier levels, anyway). Grab some pine, med to full in 3 mins with no hp loss due to canni, grab a beer, buff back up, rinse and repeat. Why wouldn't they? You are far better off doing this, especially if you have a larger-than-you-should mana pool for your level. So out with the old "just give me a puppy and some ac" shaman, and in with the "OMG Acrylia and wis rings ftw!" generation of Shamuids.
2. DogDog tanking a slowed mob while I sit/canni. Pretty much the same as above. Mages and Necros will be in the same boat, and will have to blow through mana to kill the mob so they can sit as early as possible.
(The first two here really illustrate a larger point: If these changes do bring in "new players", those players who make casters will all, regardless of which caster they make, "grow up as wizards". This could be a very bad thing, IMO. You will have a ton of shaman/clerics/druids running around with max evocation, and crappy everything else. Why heal after a fight when you can just sit for a bit and get stupidly fast regen? Furthermore, why even bother memming regen spells? The fast leveling shaman will have 3 spells mem'd: Slow, nuke, SoW
)
3. Regeneration line of spells will be far less effective. If anyone viewed them as "a drop in the bucket" before, wait and see what it's gonna be like when these changes hit.
4. The hit that shaman (and necros, to a lesser degree) will take because of this is *no different* than it would be if, say, every class EXCEPT Wizards got a bunch of low-mana, low-resist, fast-casting, good-damage nukes almost as effective as Wizards get themselves. Wizards would cry foul, and rightly so. We should, too.
Really, it comes down to this: You can't design a class around their ability to regenerate mana, while making them pay for it with mana costs, damage, and general spell effectiveness, AND THEN make every class out there comparable in regen rates. When these changes go live, every level range will change. Canni will become a toy, and not the center of the class that it has been since 1999. If we don't have the advantage of canni, why would anyone want us around most of the time? They should just rename the class "Slow-n-Stats".
---Mammoth
1. This kills root rotting as a "growing up" tactic. I know high-end shaman don't make much use of it, but many that are below 60 do. I just came back to EQ from a 2-3 year hiatus, and am rolling up a fresh shaman. Root rotting was the absolute most efficient way for me to solo all those years ago, and as soon as these changes go live, that won't be the case anymore. It will always, always be better to blow through the mana and sit, especially if you can time it to where your buffs fall at about the same time your mana reaches 0 (at earlier levels, anyway). Grab some pine, med to full in 3 mins with no hp loss due to canni, grab a beer, buff back up, rinse and repeat. Why wouldn't they? You are far better off doing this, especially if you have a larger-than-you-should mana pool for your level. So out with the old "just give me a puppy and some ac" shaman, and in with the "OMG Acrylia and wis rings ftw!" generation of Shamuids.
2. DogDog tanking a slowed mob while I sit/canni. Pretty much the same as above. Mages and Necros will be in the same boat, and will have to blow through mana to kill the mob so they can sit as early as possible.
(The first two here really illustrate a larger point: If these changes do bring in "new players", those players who make casters will all, regardless of which caster they make, "grow up as wizards". This could be a very bad thing, IMO. You will have a ton of shaman/clerics/druids running around with max evocation, and crappy everything else. Why heal after a fight when you can just sit for a bit and get stupidly fast regen? Furthermore, why even bother memming regen spells? The fast leveling shaman will have 3 spells mem'd: Slow, nuke, SoW
)
3. Regeneration line of spells will be far less effective. If anyone viewed them as "a drop in the bucket" before, wait and see what it's gonna be like when these changes hit.
4. The hit that shaman (and necros, to a lesser degree) will take because of this is *no different* than it would be if, say, every class EXCEPT Wizards got a bunch of low-mana, low-resist, fast-casting, good-damage nukes almost as effective as Wizards get themselves. Wizards would cry foul, and rightly so. We should, too.
Really, it comes down to this: You can't design a class around their ability to regenerate mana, while making them pay for it with mana costs, damage, and general spell effectiveness, AND THEN make every class out there comparable in regen rates. When these changes go live, every level range will change. Canni will become a toy, and not the center of the class that it has been since 1999. If we don't have the advantage of canni, why would anyone want us around most of the time? They should just rename the class "Slow-n-Stats".
---Mammoth
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by Hecude Poison`Blood » Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:52 am
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by darkpaw » Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:02 pm
I do nest missions most for exp, usually botting my druid and shaman.
My shaman spot heals, panthers 3-4 targets, slows, and sloths.
My druid snares then chain nukes every mob until about half way through the mission when he finally runs oom from chain nuking. At that point he sits every few mobs and cuts back on nuking a bit so I can coast the rest of the mission.
Non cleric mobs tend to last about 30 seconds and we almost always have another one ready to go immediately.
This means I as a shaman gains zero, while my druid can start sitting for one mob every 20 or so and get back up to half mana. Am I upset? Yah, but I'm hapier that I won't be waiting around on raids for 20 minutes for clerics to regen mana all the time anymore.
My shaman spot heals, panthers 3-4 targets, slows, and sloths.
My druid snares then chain nukes every mob until about half way through the mission when he finally runs oom from chain nuking. At that point he sits every few mobs and cuts back on nuking a bit so I can coast the rest of the mission.
Non cleric mobs tend to last about 30 seconds and we almost always have another one ready to go immediately.
This means I as a shaman gains zero, while my druid can start sitting for one mob every 20 or so and get back up to half mana. Am I upset? Yah, but I'm hapier that I won't be waiting around on raids for 20 minutes for clerics to regen mana all the time anymore.
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by m970456 » Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:49 pm
[quote="Tugela"][quote="Giac"][quote="belaar"][quote]And yeah, all the boxers, who were not able to play their Shaman bot as effectively, this will be a boon for you. So I guess you guys can rejoice, as you can now just sit on your ass instead of working for it.[/quote]
Wow the arrogance of that statement is just astounding.[/quote]
Well, then try telling me that you are using cannibalize as effectively as a main with your bot. That wasn't arrogance, it's natural that you lose effectiveness when botting.[/quote]
I can chain pull Yellow cons and never go oom. The only time I need to rest to regain mana is if I get a double pull. Duo's work just as effectively as mains under most conditions, the only time there is a performance drop off is if rooting is needed for some reason, but that rarely is the case since the dynamics of a duo is different from two mains. Of course, if you are dumb enough to try to play a duoed alt the same way as a single, you are going to have trouble. The arrogance is assuming that a duoed shaman doesnt make efective use of their mana[/quote]
It seems the only people that don't understand how this will hurt shaman are people who BOT shaman. I guess that explains quite a bit.
Anyone remember what happened to picking a troll after the upped the regen on everyone? When you are balanced against a benefit you have and the benefit is reduced, it isn't balanced anymore. Only a BOT wouldn't understand this.
Wow the arrogance of that statement is just astounding.[/quote]
Well, then try telling me that you are using cannibalize as effectively as a main with your bot. That wasn't arrogance, it's natural that you lose effectiveness when botting.[/quote]
I can chain pull Yellow cons and never go oom. The only time I need to rest to regain mana is if I get a double pull. Duo's work just as effectively as mains under most conditions, the only time there is a performance drop off is if rooting is needed for some reason, but that rarely is the case since the dynamics of a duo is different from two mains. Of course, if you are dumb enough to try to play a duoed alt the same way as a single, you are going to have trouble. The arrogance is assuming that a duoed shaman doesnt make efective use of their mana[/quote]
It seems the only people that don't understand how this will hurt shaman are people who BOT shaman. I guess that explains quite a bit.
Anyone remember what happened to picking a troll after the upped the regen on everyone? When you are balanced against a benefit you have and the benefit is reduced, it isn't balanced anymore. Only a BOT wouldn't understand this.
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by Brohg » Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:42 am
Never running out of mana while performing the duties expected of a shm bot is entirely different from accomodating the mana demands of an active main shaman. It's not about how many breaks you take, it's about how much you get done while in combat. Active main shm are hardcapped by spell effectiveness, other classes have (thus far) been softcapped by mana usage.
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