Druid vs. Shaman balance thread on EQlive

[Fenier]

Honestly, I have no clue.

It is the only spell we have which deals more damage in a single blow then Sting, so I am going out on a limb and assuming its supposed to be somewhat balanced with it.

It gains the bonuses of being able to be focused twice, due to the double cast, but the second cast requires its own debuff to land decently due to no resist mod.

Additionally, if the fire part is resisted, the cold part doesn't cast at all.

And! If the fire part lands, we score an extra 400~ hate ontop of the hate actually generated by the damage of the spell.

Yes, the spell needs work imo.

[Ungkor]

[Fenier]

[Ungkor]

[Unmei]

[Kamion]

[WaringMcMarrin]

If you like the spell so much why dont you just roll a shaman?

[Kamion]

[Giac]

[Shinerbokk]

[WaringMcMarrin]

[jdthomas]

[Kamion]

I can't speak for my class, but I can speak for myself.

Outside of comparing how Mask and Canni progressed, there is no real shaman vs. druid balance issues I've talked about on forums before TSS was relised. If you don't believe me, feel free to check my post history on TDG and SoE forums. And I've been playing EQ since 2002.

When TSS came out, I saw a skewing in the balance - so, I posted my thoughts on it. A single post. Yes there are a lot of druid 'whine' threads, as you put it, but there's only one made by me (even though I like to think of it as a logical arguement rather than a whine, but you can interpupt it how you wish.) The druid-SotQ request thread is simply a more detailed look at something brought up in my original class comparison, prompted by the unrest SotQ causes among the rational members of the druid community.

The druid class is a class balanced around an ability we don't have (nor want), stances. You can argue that all you want, but that's the only explaination I can give. And the only thing that would certainly cause me to retire my druid would be stances going live, if you wish for me to "go the **** away" your energy would be better spent promoting stances than bitching at me =D.

[Tarnnok]

[Kamion]

[Dakota]

[Binter]

Might I say this.

...

That about sums it up.

Kamion: if you want upgrades to abilities you think the devs shorted your class on, do it WITHOUT comparing your abilities to the abilities of other classes. Those comparisons are wholly irrelevant, as different classes do not do the same things, even if they have similar roles...they don't take into account the rest of the class abilities which might be why a spell/ability was designed the way it was.

[EeyonRN]

wow. its been a long time since i've read the old board, but it sure is funny to see people here slamming people on another board for class envy after seeing the exact same thing here hundreds and hundreds of times. its real simple. nobody likes it when their class slides down the power scale relative to other classes. druids don't like it. shamans don't like it. nobody likes it. this place isn't, and never has been, any different than any other class forum in that respect. its one thing to say that a class comparison isn't legitimate, but its another to say that people shouldn't compare classes, and its very hypocritical.

personally, i think that any of the three priest classes should be able to cure their group in any encounter. the class that is relegated to curing at the time is naturally the class that is less effective in other areas for that particular encounter, so i really see no reason that they shouldn't be able to at least provide that role, and i also don't see why any other class should care if they did.

it should also be noted that shaman always have and always will use flawed logic when it comes to "ramp up time" and dps comparisons to other casting classes. if a shaman could theoretically outdamage another casting class by using only damage spells, but deems it more important to use other spells first, the shaman still possesses the ability to do more damage if they so choose. the fact that it is preferable to use debuffs first and damage second only implies that in that particular situation, the shaman holds even more of an edge, otherwise they would simply cast their damage spells instead. likewise, if another casting class was given shaman debuffs, it would obviously not make them less powerful by virtue of reducing their damage. ramp up time is only relevent in situations in which the debuff is neccessary for the shaman to deal damage and in which no debuff is neccessary for the other casting class to do damage.

all that being said, shaman have sucked wind for so long that its nice to see other classes envying us again, even if its just lowly druids. that's still something!

[Tineren]

[Fenier]

[Fenier]

[XeroOmega]

[Kamion]

[Dakota]

[Unmei]

[Fenier]

[Chutoi]

[Unmei]

[Kamion]

Fact- Winter's Flame is efficient damage.
Fact- Winter's Flame has a potent direct hate mod attached to it.
Fact- DoTs are efficienct damage.
Fact- Due to coding, DoT damage will add slightly more aggro than the same damage done through a nuke.
Fact- Shaman DoTs > Druid DoTs (in terms of damage)
Fact- Since the DoT revamping, shaman DoTs have no unique aggro componets over other DoT classes.
Fact- For MAX dps, druids and shamans need to cast DoTs.
Fact- Shamans and druids use a lot of spell gems for heals / utility.
Fact- During a fight you only need to mem spells you're going to use that fight.

Chutlogic, it's a winner.

And the same people who support Chutoi have the audacity to call my posts skewed ><

[Chutoi]

I can't honestly say I've run those numbers, Unmei, but keep in mind spiritual channelling is also offset by damage--we would still have to drop our dps by time spent healing ourselves. That adds up far more quickly than you'd think. The situation where we're chaining SotQ/AS/AS is 1715 mana, and chain casting for 15.65 seconds (before spell haste is figured in), and is the only situation where shaman dps exceeds druid dps (405 dps vs 387 dps). Keep in mind, our efficiency at that level of burn is approx 62% of that of a druid at full burn. I'm not sure what the mana efficiency of spiritual channeling is, but let's say it's 1.5 hp to 1 mana. That's much better than canna--rank III Ancestral Bargain is 1.85hp per mana, so I think 1.5hp to 1 mana is pretty conservative. Thus, every 16 seconds, we would have to cast a heal that covers 2573 hp.

Halcyon Breeze would cover it (almost), but you have to then add in the cast time on HB, plus recast, every 4 tics. Obviously everything starts changing if you start adding AAs or focus items, so this is all unbuffed and no AAs right now.

Consider, you'd be adding 6 seconds casting on HB, and 2.25 recast every 4 tics. If you run the numbers, you'll find that dps is going to drop well below that of the druids at that point.

Fact is, we don't have near the sustainability of damage that druids do if we go full burn. Not even close. We have (generally) smaller mana pools since shaman go hp over mana, and our efficiency is horrible compared to druids. If we canna as we go, we can bring our efficiency up to 75% of druids, but at the cost of about 100 dps--which drops us WELL below druids.

Shaman can now burn--but at a fairly horrendous cost.

Chutoi

[Kamion]

"keep in mind spiritual channelling is also offset by damage--we would still have to drop our dps by time spent healing ourselves. That adds up far more quickly than you'd think."

But AA bea...Nvm I give up.

Eitherway, who the hell cares about full-on-burn dps. If your guild is wiping to valik at L75, thats not due to priest-burn dps balance issues.

[Chutoi]

[Chutoi]

[XeroOmega]

[Ughbash]

[ophidion]

Fact -
Fact - Druids are jealous of this
Fact - Go away

[Kamion]

"If you don't care about full burn dps, which is where the shaman MIGHT pass the druid on direct damage spells, then wtf have you been bitching about???"

I care about practical scenerios. Under the midst of moderate healing, druid nukes -with their 3.8 second cast time- tie up lot of cast time for throwing a nuke in here and there. Druid rains don't tie up much cast time (2.3 seconds), but the spell mechanics don't make them friendly on raids.

A SotQ-type of ability is practical for druids and shamans -- it makes no sense why only one of the two classes got it, thats 'all' i was getting at.

[Samanna]

[ophidion]

[Samanna]