Important Posts from eqlive boards

[Alaene]

[gaesekki]

[Alaene]

[gaesekki]

You are still missing the point here.

First of all, you neglected to recognize the fact that it is a relative lack of power. I don't think anybody has stated that it is a lack of power on a stand alone basis.

Secondly, the superior mana regen of shaman has an opportunity cost each and every time we have to hit the spell gem variety - which is pretty much each time it refreshes in order to fulfill our role. This can be considered a little more than an 'inconvenience'.

Balance is all about comparitive advantages among classes and shaman (and necros) are losing one with nothing given back in return. I am all for the ooc changes as I destest the waiting for other classes to become battle ready but this across the board "benefit" in no way benefits shaman from a playability point of view. The only benefit is to impatient buggers like me after a raid wipe. That is not a balanced change.

[Binter]

Alaene:

People have tried to explain it in large terms and small terms, in paragraphs and single lines.

It boils down to this.

You state that the shaman advantage of canni has always been about mana regen and the versatility it provides.

That is the basic core of the shaman class. We can't do anything better than anyone else except slow, but we can do many things that delves into other classes. We are the bards of the casters, able to nuke, dot, heal, debuff, cure, protect, and enhance.

But that versatility comes at the price of always being at the bottom of the list of classes concerning that ability.

We debuff strongly, but mages and enchanters can debuff equally well. We can heal, but we are the weakest of the priest classes in healing. We can dot, but druids and necromancers can dot with equal or greater power. We nuke, but we are the weakest of all the pure caster classes when it comes to nukes. We are not the best soloers, but we solo well. We can buff someone out the wazoo, but other classes can buff equally well, and the usefulness of our buffs has degraded over time as people capped stats, forcing SOE to introduce "mod" buffs just so we had some reason to cast them. The only aspect of shaman power in which we are paramount is in slowing, with a 5-25% edge over all other slowing classes.

In fact, no spell a shaman has except for slows and canni are not unique. They are shared, in various degrees, with all other classes.

We have this versatility, and we have our unique class ability...canni. These combine to make a shaman the king of endurance. We do many things, and we have the power to keep doing it for a LONG time. Long after the clerics and druids are oom, the shaman are still chain casting. Long after the necro goes oom and must med while soloing, the shaman is still plugging away, canni'ing and casting in an endless cycle. The shaman often finds himself playing gems while the rest of the group meds, since he's fm and they're oom.

THAT is our true one defining aspect. Not our versatility, not our canni. The ability to outlast everyone else. We are the Survivor of EQ.

That plodding demeanor carries through to the other side of the coin. Just as it takes a long time to wear us down, it also takes US a long time to wear down the other guy. That advantage of time is our weakness on the offensive side of the ball as much as it is our strength on defense. Nothing about a shaman is fast. Our primary means of dealing damage is over time, just as our primary means of healing is over time. Everything we do, everything we are about, is about time. Lots and lots of time.

Shaman are about stability and endurance over time. Go duel a shaman and you'll understand that faster than anything else. We're very hard to kill...but on the flipside, it is very hard for us to kill others. We are a solid foundation in a group, a stable platform around which the group can operate, because the group knows that the shaman is always going to have mana and has a large bag of tricks to whip out in almost any situation.

A shaman can do almost anything, but WE CAN NOT DO IT QUICKLY.

Remember that. Shaman are not about speed, not in ANYTHING. We heal slowly, we kill slowly, we cast slowly. The only thing we can do fast is regain mana.

Now, that one aspect is being taken away.

It's a nerf by omission. Our primary asset, our durability over time, is being trivialized by allowing everyone to be as resilient as we are just by sitting down for 3 minutes...people who didn't have to tailor their gear and their AAs to gain this durability...for it is certainly not something that shaman gain by default. Shaman focus on hp over mana to fuel canni, and tailor all of their gear and AAs around being able to extend that plateau of durable dependability, to last as long as possible. And since we're not being "actively" nerfed, well, it's not class balance issues, is it?

And since it's not an active nerf, well, our spells are still going to have very long cast times, and our spells are going to continue to have high mana costs. We will continue to be as solid and dependable as we always were, but to a shaman, it's like our entire class focus has been trivialized. Now, anyone can be as durable over time as we are as long as they're not fighting and they're sitting down.

Now, remember that thing about us being at the bottom of the list on most issues? Now it comes back to haunt us. Since our ability to endure over time is now a trait shared by every other class, what more impact can a shaman have over other classes? They can sustain much longer using their bigger spells, while we are trapped with our old ones. We were always out-healed, out-dotted, out-buffed, etc, by other classes, but the balance in that was that we could buff, dot, heal, etc much longer than they could.

Not anymore.

That's the point that many are trying to make.

It's something that a non-shaman just won't easily understand, because to truly understand the impact of this, you have to BE a shaman.

[Alaene]

I don't think I'm missing your point - and I don't think you're missing mine, either.

I think we just have different assessments of how class balance sits, currently, and how this change will affect the shaman's relative balance.

I agree competely with your description of balance, and that shamans & necros are losing an advantage. I just don't agree that it's an unwarranted loss. You guys have enjoyed your time in the sun - and you were never going to stay "top of the heap" for ever. I also don't agree that you see no benefit - I pointed out a potential benefit above, and there's always the fact that you can now ease off the constant hammering of canni, and passively regen like everyone else.

I'm quite happy to leave it at that, really. I've made my point and expressed the view that the sky isn't falling. I guess we'll see, after the change hits live servers, how badly (or not) shamans are hurting.

Good luck with it

[Galelor]

[Brohg]

[Samanna]

[gaesekki]

[Samanna]

...the farming out of another core ability.

Mana Regen, meet Slow, Heal over Time, and the rest of the gang. There should be another chair around here somewhere...

[gaesekki]

[Veril]

[Jeis]

[Jaraman]

Ok, so we've heard all the speculative testimony on how OOC regen is good for all, not so good for shamans. I'd like to consider solutions we might offer to the Devs. I'm going to throw a few out, but look at the proposals from both a positive and Devil's Advocate side.

Solution #1) decrease the mana cost of shamans (and necros) spells
Solution #2) transfer Pained Memory into an AA with the same timer/power as the spell
Solution #3) transform PM into a passive regen self-buff (shammy lich)
Solution #4) increase the power of shaman spells (stronger heals, nukes, DOTs)
Solution #5) increase the power of cannibalization (bigger bites for AA and spells)

Indirect compensation:
#1) add a 10th spell gem
#2) shorten/eliminate recast timers on critical spells (BoD, cures, Champ, Malos, GoR)
#3) introduce a group Panther (even a tiered version)

Implementing any one of these would be a large step in compensating for the relative power loss that farming out mana regen introduces to our class. Any one of these solutions would be swell, imho.


The biggest factors preventing these solutions:

A) Dev manhours -- TSS is only weeks away, and no doubt the Devs are swamped with other matters
B) Persuasion -- regardless of how the shaman community feels, the outside perceptions that Devs may share is that shamans are already relatively "overpowered" in the mana regen department
C) Priority -- even given some direct proof, Devs may relegate this overall class-balance need low priority
D) Misses the issue -- these "solutions" all contribute to shaman in-combat power, while failing to address OOC regen itself

The last factor, D, is the most crucial point to be made. It has been implicitly agreed that shaman in-combat power will not be affected directly, and we will continue to enjoy our "sustainability." While it does not feel fair that every class (including shaman!) will be able to simply sit down for 3 minutes and get to full where shaman used to have to work hard for it, the fact remains that this is a large boon to all EQ classes.

The gray areas of speculation and negative affects are that classes will now have much more useable mana in-combat as a direct result of OOC regen. Exactly how much of a shift this will represent is the subject of heated debates, and yet bears the burden of proof -- Shamans strongly believe that classes like mages, wizards, and druids will suddenly become more DPS heavy, and druids also more heal-worthy, which in effect doubly eclipses shamans. Moreover, shamans feel that OOC regen will benefit many classes so greatly, especially specialists, while shamans receive little to no direct benefit, that the result will be a negative gain for shamans. Because everyone is stepping one foot forward while shaman stay put, it is the same as shamans taking one step backwards. Compared to certain other classes, we are actually taking 2 or more steps backward. This is why we demand compensation of some sort.

The bottom line is this. Out-of-combat, everyone is now on a level playing field. In-combat, shaman retain their staying power. The gray area is that shamans believe other classes will benefit greatly (and this idea rings true on other class boards as well). This benefit will spill over into in-combat effectiveness, but the exact amount of spill-over is debatable. Whatever that amount is, all of the above solutions address in-combat power, and likely over-compensate, from a non-shaman point of view.

So the question is, can a valid solution be proposed which addresses all the issues, and satisfies the most people on all sides of the fences?

[Jeis]

one quick question i'd like to get some feedback is are we concerned more with this as a Grouping/solo issue rather than raid issues?

maybe under a raid situation raid leader should have a LAA that allows for fast regen only while in the raid and when no one in the raid is on agro list...if anyone gets on agro list the raid becomes flagged as aggroed?

grouping however is where i see this having the biggest killing on shamans regen and will be hardest part to fix?

comment and flame away:)

[Jaraman]

[Jaraman]

[fendaann]

[Samanna]

[Beafly]

[Jalelin]

[Kiru]

[Fenier]

[Jaraman]

[Kozinad]

[Samanna]

By this logic, if you reduced Shaman and Necromancer spell mana costs by 10%, and cut all the other classes' mana costs by 50%, it would just be Shamans and Necromancers bitching, because after all, that would not reduce Necromancer or Shaman abilities; rather the gripe is that it benefits other classes more than it benefits Shamans and Necromancers.

[Giac]

The keypoint everyone is missing is simple:

The cannibalize spell is intended to give us a higher in-combat sustainability, but in reality the spell's full potential is only used during downtime. 99% of the Shaman and 99.9% of the non-Shaman don't realize, that, if they currently(live servers) only used cannibalize during combat, they'd understand that the spell is not working properly for the sistuations it was designed for and they'd also notice how "underpowered" the class would then be.

Since this wasn't a problem so far, as the spell was balanced due to its downtime power, now that its downtime power is greatly diminished, there is a dire need for it to create enhanced in-combat sustainibility again. This can only be achieved by making it a passive or semi-passive ability, as anything that requires you to actively click it, is subject to "anti-proportionality". Let me explain it in simple words:

When time is a constant, and time has to be invested in order to receive intended benefits, then the benefits are directly anti-proportional to the needss for such a benefit. Or even easier:

The more time you have, the more mana you gain through cannibalize. But if you have time(which is a result of not having to click other things so often), then you don't really need all the mana.
Now assume the opposite, when the content you are in requires you to click a lot of spells, you have less time and canni returns less mana exactly in those situations where you'd actually need more mana.

That's why I get all mad when I hear about relative power loss. It's a load of crap and shows that there's not a complete understanding of the mechanics. This has nothing to do with Necromancers either. There are other things to the downtime changes that will affect us, but those can hardly be addressed, without rethinking class balance among the same archetypes. This can and should be.

End of story.

[Ughbash]

The problem with Canni in combat especially with short fights is it takes time.

Lets say you have a 30 second fight and use pained memory twice.

2.5 second cast time, 2 second spell gem refress si 4.5 seconds, x2 is 9 seconds out fo 30 Almost a third of our time we are spending canniblaizing when we coudl be actually doing constructive.

Let use a one min fight now and 3 pained memory. 13.5 out of 60 seconds almost 25 percent of our time just tyring to maintain mana.

What Giac and others are trying to say is that there is an opportunity cost for usinf cannibalize in combat. That opportunity cost is the lost time we spend trying to regain mana, usually about 20 to 30 percent.


Now as for relative balance. Lets say that every class other then Druid* were to receive an extra 10k hp/mana, while druids received an additional 1k hp/mana. While druids would be better off then before, most people would rather take someone else since they would have a lot more hp/mana. This means from the standpoint of an abiity to get a group, Drudis were nerfed.


*Random class picked for no other reason then to make a point, I am not advocating the nerfing of druids or any other class (with the possilbe exception of Gnomes which should not be nerfed but simply removed from the game).

[Jaraman]

[Ughbash]

Jaramen,

My argument is that we do not HAVE a superior in combat edge. The additional mana we can recover is paid for and costs us additional time to cast. Each Pained Memory in combat costs is 4.5 seconds we could be doing somethign else. This makes us 20 percent LESS efficent in combat. It was the Out of Combat regen that let us stay with a group for a long time without runnign OOM.

[Giac]

[Beafly]

[Chutoi]

[Kozinad]

Samanna said:

"By this logic, if you reduced Shaman and Necromancer spell mana costs by 10%, and cut all the other classes' mana costs by 50%, it would just be Shamans and Necromancers bitching, because after all, that would not reduce Necromancer or Shaman abilities; rather the gripe is that it benefits other classes more than it benefits Shamans and Necromancers"

You hit the nail on the head. I think this is by far the best summary of how this change is affecting EQ class balance.

Necros and Shammies - mana cost reduction of say 10 percent
Mages - maybe 25% (dps loss for pets staying out of battle)
Wizzies - mana cost reduction of say 50%, but only if they don't have to snare each mob

other classes - different amounts depending upon the class.

Druids while in dps mode while not having to snare the mobs - same reduction as Wizzies
Druids while in heal/snare mode - maybe like 20 percent
Clerics - not really sure maybe like 20 percent.

So yes this will change the balance of power.
It will knock Shamans and Necromancers down a bit.
It will bring wizzies up quite a bit.

As far as others? Somewhere in between I guess.

I seriously doubt that wizzies are griping about this change.
Prolly pinching themselves "This is too good to be true. This is too good to be true..."

[KB]

It is going to breed a whole new graduating class of noobs who have no clue concerning mana consumption during in combat situations.

[runeshaman]

No matter how many valid arguments are made for our cause in this situation, nothing at all will even be looked at until after it has been live a while and we can prove it with parses, etc. Hell, even then we have a snowball's chance of ever having something done about it.

[Galelor]

[Glauri]

[Alaene]