What should the level 75 shaman look like?

[Giac]

[Fenier]

[Ughbash]

[Fenier]

[Aristein]

No one said to ask for a downside...lol

What some people are saying is that the list posted at the start of this thread is unrealistic and in my mind even undesirable. If every class received everything they wanted, the game would suck. If you don't enjoy the role that you play as a shaman, then choose another class. As it is, Shaman are already one of the top tier classes imo. Or maybe it is more about the skill in which one play's the shaman. In our guild shaman help us own script after script in a way that just no other class can.

Sure, since starting my shaman in Oct. 99 I've seen plenty of tweaking and changing of the role for a shaman in the game, and most of it has been fun. But, desiring the ability to heal like a cleric, dot like a necro, nuke like a druid, buff less because of unified single buff, AND ALSO debuff less because of a unified single debuff...is ultimately self-defeating. Why stop there? Let's just go back and play Ultima Online where everyone can do the exact same thing.

How about a discussion regarding creative, yet realistic additions to the class?

Take care...

[Scowls]

[Jaraman]

[Kanamori Hitatomi]

Just out of curiosity, I looked at DD spells only for Cleric/Druid/Shaman, the results are rather sad . . .

Shaman

- level 69 - cold
413 mana for 1273 damage (3.08 dam/mana)

- level 68 - poison (4 hit Targeted AE)
561 mana for 893 damage/hit (3572 damage total) (6.37 dam/mana)

- level 66 - poison
425 mana for 1197 damage (2.82 dam/mana)

- level 64 - cold
330 mana for 925 damage (2.80 dam/mana)

- level 63 - poison (4 hit Targeted AE)
450 mana for 650 damage/hit (2600 damage total) (5.78 dam/mana)

- level 61 - poison
340 mana for 870 damage (2.56 dam/mana)

This is where a level 70 shaman is for DD nukes (DoT are surprisingly close for druids and Clerics [understandably] are better against undead)


Druid

- level 70 - cold
405 mana for 2043 damage (5.04 dam/mana)

- level 70 - cold
381 mana for 1892 damage (4.97 dam/mana)

- level 70 - fire
482 mana for 2125 damage (4.41 dam/mana)

- level 69 - fire
494 mana for 2201 damage (4.46 dam/mana)

- level 66 - magic (PBAE)
812 mana for 1105 damage (1.36 dam/mana - 1 target)

- level 66 - magic
287 mana for 535 damage + 2.5 sec stun (level 70) (1.86 dam/mana)

- level 66 - cold (Targeted AE)
623 mana for 1168 damage (1.87 dam/mana - 1 target)
Resist Adjust = -50

- level 65 - cold
290 mana for 1450 damage (5 dam/mana)

- level 65 - fire
435 mana for 1761 damage (4.05 dam/mana)

- level 65 - cold
305 mana for 1375 damage (4.51 dam/mana)

- level 64 - fire
395 mana for 1600 damage (4.05 dam/mana)

- level 62 - magic (Targeted AE)
450 mana for 1100 damage (2.44 dam/mana - 1 target)

- level 61 - magic (PBAE)
650 mana for 850 damage (1.31 dam/mana - 1 target)

- level 61 - magic
230 mana for 410 damage + 2.5 sec stun (level 65) (1.78 dam/mana)

- level 61 - cold (Targeted AE)
500 mana for 850 damage (1.7 dam/mana - 1 target)
resist adjust = -50

- level 60 - fire
300 mana for 1350 damage (4.5 dam/mana)

- level 60 - cold
263 mana for 1132 damage (4.3 dam/mana)

- level 59 - fire
335 mana for 1294 damage (3.86 dam/mana)

- level 58 - magic - Targeted AE
357 mana for 812 damage (2.27 dam/mana - 1 target)


Cleric

- level 70 - magic
457 mana for 1646 damage (3.6 dam/mana)

- level 69 - magic (PBAE)
812 mana for 1105 damage (1.36 dam/mana - 1 target)

- level 69 - chromatic
375 mana for 1200 damage (3.2 dam/mana)

- level 67 - magic
430 mana for 1424 damage (3.31 dam/mana)

- level 65 - magic
413 mana for 1329 damage (3.21 dam/mana)

- level 65 - magic
379 mana for 1219 damage (3.22 dam/mana)

- level 64 - magic (PBAE)
650 mana for 850 damage (1.31 dam/mana - 1 target)

- level 62 - magic
365 mana for 1175 damage (3.22 dam/mana)


Overall, we have to go all the way down to a level 58 druid or a level 62 cleric to have our nukes hit for more than that. You'll never approach either at the rate we're going. Hell, clerics have more 2 nukes/AE's than we do past level 60. We're the worst of the healers, and worst of the DPS (if clerics and druids were to go all out DPS, which they normally don't nor do we). I've seen plently of parses where the clerics/druids were getting higher than I am. Now I understand why. Yes, we have DoTs, so do Druids (which were closer to ours than I had expected, plus theirs have debuffs and resist adjusts on them too and cost much less mana). We heal and cure just like they do on fights (at least in my guild, druids tend to do more DPS, since we have a decent number of clerics). We're the worst at those, and we're the worst at DPS still. We have buffs, so do they. I don't see much of a justification for us being held down so much. I'd like to be able to nuke as well as a level 65 druid at level 80 (WTF?) . . .

[EeyonRN]

i dont think that most shm really care all that much about the mana/damage efficiency on their nukes. they mainly suck because their dps is so low.

[Kanamori Hitatomi]

Ya, I know that, just put it in there for some kind of idea where our efficiency was sposed to be around. Looks like we're gonna be around 2.8-3 on the efficiency, which I'm fine with, it was what I was gonna be planning for a proposed DD spell for next expansion. I was a bit more worried about the damage numbers than the mana costs . . .

Sad that a 1500dd nuke for 500 mana would still put us behind a level 64 druid or 70 cleric and for us, it would wind up being a level 75-80 spell .

[Fenier]

[Jaraman]

[Fenier]

[Kanamori Hitatomi]

[Scowls]

[Fenier]

[Kanamori Hitatomi]

Yes, some melees have the ability to chain some spell lines (I believe most use 2-3 nukes to up their DPS while they have the mana to do so) to get some good DPS going too, but, from a balance point, I was looking at the others in the healer archtype. I would never compare my spells to say a paladin slay or wizard/mage nukes. I agree our spell cast times for the amount of damage done is pretty out of proportion. I would like to see the times reduced (hell, by level 75, a BL will have a nuke for as much as ours is at 70) on existing spells, Ice Age in particular is too long of a cast for the damage done. I just happen to use it somewhat due to my higher cold focus than poison focus, but when 'burn' time comes, it's back to the poison nuke for faster damage.

[sidenote: WTF is up with shared tasks, day before yesterday, we killed Draygun and when we started to bid on the 4 loots, we get a message that the AVERAGE level had dropped too low and the task would end in 2 minutes. We had like 2 people leave the task, and, for our guild, level 70 is a requirement to raid. I know all in the task were 70, so, WTF? I've heard for DoD shared tasks, this is a problem at times. Fix this SoE please. I missed winning my first Bazu stone due to this. . .]

[Fenier]

[Scowls]

[Kanamori Hitatomi]

[Tineren]

[Scowls]

[Tineren]

[Kanamori Hitatomi]

[Tineren]

[Jaraman]

[Kanamori Hitatomi]

[Scowls]

[ThraallFV]

would it be to crazy to ask for making the spirit call pets to be immune to spells or something? i think it would be to much but just a fun thought. and i agree they can get eaten by an AE.

[Kanamori Hitatomi]

Scowls, I agree, we're recruits for groups for healing purposes. That's expected and in that role, I don't think I'm going to be much of a DPS addition to the group. My main problems are on raids, when there are multiple shaman, roles tend to be debuffer, slower, rez buffer, etc. . . But, when a call for max DPS is made, we bounce DoTs (and in most cases the mob is dead pretty quick, so our DoTs aren't doing a whole bunch in the situation anyways) or bounce nukes. When our nukes do land, it's not for an appreciable amount of damage, even compared to clerics or druids not in the heal chain. THAT is my concern.

I consider our brothers and sisters in the priest archtype, in most ways, we should be rather balanced there.

We're balanced for slow, I get that, we have the worst heals from that era of full slows. The upgrades they made helped bring us more in line, but perhaps could use a bit more work. For healing, clerics have the quickest 'quick' heal at 1.75, shamans and druids are limited to 3.75. For the 'quick' 3.75 heals, clerics are at 100%, druids are at 74.55% and we are at 65.45%. For the 'CH' heals, clerics are at 100%, druids are at 62.4% and we are at a dismal 26% (we never got an upgrade to Kragg's Mending, druids did). We should get an upgrade to this spell, Kragg's Spear of Wilslik (heh), healing 4109 damage for 600 mana (using the same mana cost as the upgraded druid CH, all originial CH's were at 400 mana, thus, there is precedence for the mana cost), using a 10 CH timer, healing a maximum of 75% (heh, this wouldn't even be close to it, but . . .). The next series of 'CH's thrown out would probably have to be near something like clerics 9k, druids 6710 and us 5891 (Blood of the Kragg, heh) for like 800 mana due to the rising HP values.

Our DoTs may or may not be addressed in the future (Nectar of Pain is a good place to start with, if they continue down that path), however, we are the strongest (WHEN they do land) in that category. Clerics are at 44.82% of us (though they do have a defensive proc that would be used instead of DoTs IMHO) and druids are at 80.82% of us on DoTs. The thing that really surprises me is that both clerics and druids have resist adjusts on their spells. For clerics, it is a bit understandable, since they cannot debuff resistances at all (our malosinia [-70] and -30 resist adjust on Nectar of Pain = their -100 resist adjust on all of their undead dots). Druids, however, are able to debuff a DoT line (Fire) for DoTs that already have resist adjusts on them. Hopefully, our DoT lines will continue to get resist adjusts on them (at the bare minimum, poison almost requires it, since I would have to say 95% of the mobs out there have a much larger PR than FR or MR, in general, it normally goes DR=PR>MR>FR). The fact that most groups will have SOMEONE able to debuff most/all resist lines and all raids DO, the resist adjusts already on other classes (all other classes besides us) benefits them more - see other threads all over the Crucible about this topic. Not counting the Clerics defensive proc, their undead DoTs should be brought up by 20.63% to keep the healing ratios (how we are balanced against each other). Druids are over theirs by 6.27%. I would never suggest nerfing anyone's current abilities, thus I would propose ours and clerics spells be brought up to maintain the 100%~~74.55%~~65.45% ratios.

Our nukes on the other hand, are the worst again of all the priests. We have no modifiers on them and they are a large percentage worse off than the other 2 classes. We're at 77.34% of the cleric damage and 57.84% of the druid damage on DD nukes. These numbers look a lot like the heal percentages from long ago (with cleric and druid reversed). Our AE nuke (if you can really call it that) is bad enough to qualify as non-existant for AE purposes (though, it is nice to use on single mobs for more efficient DPS). I'm not sure how we are considered balanced on the nuke aspect. Using the same descriptions as above, Druids are at 100%, clerics are at 74.78% and we are at 57.84%. IMHO, the clerics are at virtually the healing level a druid is compared to them, and we are 7.61% lower than we should be (if we use the healing as the guide for spell balances between us). Our best nuke should be at 1370 (for 445 mana to keep the 3.08 dam/mana ratio). Should this be considered for upgrading now, prior to the expansion?

On the buffing aspect, we all have equally valuable buffs (even though a few of ours could use condensing into 1-2 buffs).

For 'utility', I would have to rank druids and shamans as pretty equal. We have different, but useful abilitys to bring to a group/raid. Clerics have some, but they are underpowered in this aspect compared to us. If cleric DoT's are brought up to maintain the ratios, I would say they would be equal (their defensive proc would then be considered utility instead of DoT damage).



FYI, the DoT's I considered were the 4 highest damage DoTs in the classes (unfocused at all, base duration, run for full course):
Note: Please look these over, I'm in no way a master of clerics or druids.

Shaman - 10464 damage total
- 4424 damage total (7 ticks - poison)
- 3150 damage total (7 ticks - poison, -30 resist adjust)
- 2890 damage total (5 ticks - magic)
- 2190 damage total (5 ticks - magic)

Druid - 8457 damage total
- 2601 damage total (9 ticks - magic, -100 resist adjust)
- 2060 damage total (5 ticks - fire, -30 resist adjust)
- 2016 damage total (9 ticks - magic, -100 resist adjust)
- 1780 damage total (10 ticks - fire, -50 resist adjust, also lowers AC by 36 and FR by 40)

Cleric - 4690 damage - note: Clerics also have a line of defensive procs against undead (Ward of xxx) ranging from 207/hit () to 550/hit (). These last for 2 minutes, have a procmodrate of 400 (like their hammers), are magic resist, and have a -50 resist adjust (so, not as reliable of landing as Panther).
- 1880 damage total (5 ticks - magic, -100 resist adjust, undead only)
- 1525 damage total (5 ticks - magic, -100 resist adjust, undead only)
- 810 damage total (5 ticks - magic, -100 resist adjust)
- 475 damage total (5 ticks - magic, -100 resist adjust)


FYI on heals (no focuses):
Ours 'quick heal' is - 2716 healed for 723 mana at 3.75 casting time.
Our 'not a CH heal' is - 1950 healed for 400 mana at 10 casting time (75% max healed). This spell was an embarassment at the time and is even more so now.
Druids 'quick heal' is - 3094 healed for 723 mana at 3.75 casting time.
Druids 'CH' is - 4680 healed for 600 mana at 10 casting time (75% max healed).
Clerics 'quickest heal' is - 1990 healed for 495 mana at 1.75 casting time.
Clerics normal 'quick heal' is - 4150 healed for 775 mana at 3.75 casting time.
Clerics 'CH' is - 7500 healed for 400 mana at 10 casting time (no max % healed limit).

[Scowls]

[Fenier]

[Jaraman]

[Tineren]

[Kanamori Hitatomi]

[Jaraman]

[siludorf]

[Tineren]

[Ughbash]

[Fenier]