SoD Spell List

[Hulkling]

All updated as of 10/14/08. Spells in bold are brand new.













Almost forgot! Level 59 Deflection Disc! 12 second Frontal 100% Shield Block. Insta cast, 40 minute recast, 50 End/sec.

[Saintsaens]

Okay explain the two Crush spells please? Are they like single target nukes with a large hate component, basically?

And Withstand... How does that work?

[Nodden]

Crush of the crying seas looks really nice if it's not linked with our stuns. Combine that with the 3k FoD and hello kings of single target aggro .

[Hulkling]

Crush of Compunction timer is linked to Lesson of Compunction, and Crush of the Crying Seas timer is linked to Force of the Crying Seas. So you either choose to Stun for agro, or DPS for agro. Pretty easy choice on Compunctions, since KB stun isn't used much in the 1st place. SKs are going apeshit cuz of these 2 spells lol. These are basically the Dev's answer to us bitching about higher stun caps. Nice addition IMO.

CoC rk2 is base ~48 DPS, and CotCS is base ~33 DPS .....thats not counting crits, focus, and resists. We tried to get resist mods added to these, but so far no joy. Mark of the Crusader is another ~78 DPS provided yer not chain stunning (plus it stacks with Mark of the Saint). All 3 added together gives us a nice little DPS boost.

Withstand is a new Disc - insta cast 85% Vie, that fades after the dmg cap -or- 2 hits from a mob. Its not huge, but its fast recast and uses endurance. Right now it overwrites our 25% Vie defensive disc, so thats incredibly bad. Hopefully we can get this changed to stack.

[Nodden]

Ah, too bad. But to be expected I guess.

[Normy]

I'm now actually excited for this expansion. I feel like several of our needs might have actually been addressed. I look foward to testing all this out.

[olts]

so basicly i can use my old aggro setup (not using any kb stun of course) and get a free fast casted hate nuke? woha!

c.

[knytul]

ya, these spells, aa's and disc's were ALOT of headaches, fights, just MAD drama to obtain. I can honestly say this should be the best expansion for abilities for paladins in a LONG LONG time.

[olts]

well, big thx to everyone who fought for the spells and the aa. i was in some betas, i remember how stubborn devs can be. this looks overall like a very good expansion for paladins. not so good for other classes from what i seen

new defence stuff + the hp overtime spell and the hate nuke will close the tanking gap between warriors and knights on raids (assuming sks get similar). this is a good thing for me personally, but i can see how ppl can get mad about it.

c.

[varutia]

Warrior got a nuke as part of their withstand disc, so it is a nuke and vie at same time can crit up to 10k, /drool.

[Kether]

Developer acknowledgement that stuns provide no defensive benefit on mobs over their level cap, and that something should be gained via their casting is long overdue.

However, I don't see how providing a secondary set of aggro-nukes as an option makes any sense.

The KB stun... fine. Heck, long, long ago I used it as a dps boost. The KB and cast time made it rather annoying to use it for anything else but mob positioning and dps.

The raw stun... I don't get it.

The hate/damage ratio is such that I can't forsee chaining them for dps as being very practical if you aren't tanking. If you are tanking... then is this portion of added dps really what we should be getting???

How do you handle damage sensitive mobs (e.g. Vish style adds, or mezzed mobs) with these? You have to choose not to.

SOLUTION:

KEEP the DD as-is for the KB stun.
CHANGE the lesser stun to be hate + a 1 tick debuff (accuracy/damage mod/atk/etc.) coupled to a 1 tick stacking self-Vie/other mod.

This lets you use adequate stuns for some mob DPS reduction on ALL mobs.
Lets you use the KB stun for some more aggro/situational DPS.
Does NOT present a scaling problem.

[knytul]

kether, ur way late.....and besides, we analyzed EVERY aspect of stuns humanly possibly thinkable....what you see now is what Prathun determined the best solution for us.

[LordDavias]

Did anyone try to get a resist mod to the trial line? That was doing my head in.

Tbh, I haven't had any trouble with single target aggro that people keep going on about. If other tanks are outaggroing you even tho you got onto the mob first then those guys are 'a s s h o l e s'.

I had an aggro race with one of the best Warriors in EQ the other day, and I beat him. SKs get their own aggro buff line so I'm not surprised they're going to beat us.

I must admit, I am holding onto my DP belt tho, until I get the Crystallos mask.

Edit: PS stuns are way overpowered on top content . I was killing Fort Mech mobs with like, one HoT. Paladins can at least now fear kite in open zones, so it gives you something to do and not group with the lesser classes!

[knytul]

trust me, we have pages beyond pages of stuff covering everything imaginable. some sk's, some war's, and even some paladins would try to slam ideas down....but we prevailed on the most part. Consider SoD beta over and done with with HUGE success. Now its time to get back to the drawing boards and get 85, get all these new spells/abilities...and us as the population test em out and see how they work to our own styles.

So tell me, whens the last time Paladins got 4 brand new spell lines, 2 new disc's, and a TON of new aa's made especially for our tanking and healing needs...oh and not to mention one of our abilities regained its top crown eqwide...

[Kether]

Knytul,

As the NDA was just lifted I gave input as to the spells contained as soon as I became aware of them. I am not disputing your efforts. If the spells were presented as: "we got these new spells.... but some really aren't what we wanted and they don't make a whole lot of sense" I wouldn't have even commented.

The low DDs are still a net dps gain (although if you are casting them as soon as they pop there will be a slight reduction in total net due to dps loss, but less than what would result from casting 1.0s cast time stuns for the same aggro). What I don't understand is the "why".

Chaining high aggro, small damage, DDs while not tanking doesn't make a whole lot of sense. So this is relegated mostly to a tanking role.
However... what you are then trading is the notion that stuns serve a defensive role for some minor offensive benefit.

Damage sensitive mobs (kiting, pre-engagement aggro, scripted 'not to be hurt' mobs are problematic for it.



With regards to: "So tell me, whens the last time Paladins got 4 brand new spell lines, 2 new disc's, and a TON of new aa's made especially for our tanking and healing needs...oh and not to mention one of our abilities regained its top crown eqwide..."

I don't quite see it that way. I see new discs/spells that were given to both Knights. I also see one self-DS and these aggro nukes that are so inherenetly 'safe' from a developer standpoint that I doubt it took as much time to decide on the values as it did to name the spells.

I understand what Beta can be like, and that there are paladins that push for the 'cleric lite' version of the class hampering it from becoming a truly integrated entity (much akin to the druid problem of healing/dps) as well as the noise factor from other classes with posters who have nothing better to do than to spam poor arguments in order to derail productive debate.

The LH change looks nice. Other aspects its hard to say without first hand experience. The aggro DD that shares the KB line having a 0.5 cast time (almost certainly a consequence of its role as 'dps') is quite nice as a tag (when not inappropriate).

Going to repeat myself here:
"

If the answer is yes, it doesn't really mean much.
If the answer is NO however.... it really raises doubts about the point to these spells.

I don't think Prathun thought these were 'best for the class'. I think he thought they were 'easiest for him'.

Again, my intention is to enable clarification, not serve to undermine appreciation for your earnest efforts.

[Hulkling]

The new Crushs are a direct result of us clamoring about the huge disparity between tanks going from white con to yellow con, and how paladin tanking takes a complete 180 with arbitrary stun caps. A small DPS gain is light years better than Stuns that don't stun. I'd have preferred a level 88 stun cap, but they made it perfectly clear thats not going happen. Could there have been a better solution other than Crushs? Sure. But this kills 2 birds with 1 stone IMO.....gives us agro spells that aren't double cast-time cheap knockoffs of Terrors on stun-immune mobs, plus gives a DPS increase.

The way I see it, is Crushs give us large flexibility on an array of different level content. CoC is pretty much a given to be used in all content. The only real decision is when to swap out CofCS and FotCS, which boils down to A) whether or not the content you are in is stunnable or stun-immune, or B) whether or not a chanter/bard is in the group.

Of course you don't want to be popping off a Crush around damage sensitive mobs, but at the same time its fairly easy to predict what type of environment you'll be playing in to determine which spell set is required for both groups and raids. Even if you've loaded the "wrong" spell set, we still have Force of Disruption, Devout Force, and/or Charge for Honor to fall back on for agroing damage sensitive mobs.

Lots of options here, and thats a good thing!

You are correct in that Crushs are not practicle for DPS when not tanking, but then again providing the "other" tank with stun mitigation isn't practicle either....especially in stun-immune content The reverse DS, on the other hand, is very nice for all situations (other than kiting and stun locking).

And no, Crushs will not trigger the AA group heal proc. But I will certainly ask!

[Normy]

The increased DPS while maintaining agro is fantastic to me. One of the biggest problems I had is that our limited DPS goes to almost nothing while chain stunning to keep agro off the uber DPS. This will require stunning a bit less frequently and will add soemthing to my hits.

@LordDavias: Its not trying to keep it off other tanks in a group environment. The issue was a few components. SK AE agro was greater than our single target agro, so if they AE'ed a group of incoming adds during a raid or even in a group, we couldn't peel off a single mob with a stun. It would take 2 bare minimum, 3-4 if they were using more than just their AE. This is quite annoying and frustrating in a raid environment if you are supposed to be doing this.

The other part is that melee DPS could take agro way too often. They are doing a ton of damage with good equipment, and it really does suck to chain 3 stuns and the challenge line the entire fight just to keep it off a monk. And if they full disc, you are hoping that taunt doesn't fail to get it back on you. Chain stun worked most of the time, but it also cut off 80-90% of our already limited DPS to do it, and it really isn't fun to mash 3 keys the whole game.

So these spells address a big chunk of this, and I'm really happy to see them in this way. True, our DPS role while not tanking really hasn't been increased (except through a few additional AA's that others get as well), but in my eyes that is the last role we really have, and the lowest priority for me personally.

[Saintsaens]

[Normy]

Aye, that is one event in particular where our single target agro problems are on display. However, keep in mind that the SK's kiting are probably not doing it with 1 ae agro either. And agro in that zone is a bit screwy anyway.

I've had SK's have a real hard time peeling a mob off me when kiting in FC1 and have a few of the zombies. I build a ton of agro on them if given enough time. Same situation, but SK's are doing it with crowds.

[Hulkling]

Now this is interesting....our SoD group heal is on a 18 second recast....as opposed to 30 seconds like every other one. It also got a 44% increase from SoF (Its no where near the druid 137% group heal increase, but I won't go there). It does, however, follow the same pattern of timers:

Shared Timer:
lvl 84 - Wave of Remitment (18 second recast!)
lvl 75 - Wave of Forgiveness
lvl 65 - Wave of Trushar
lvl 55 - Wave of Healing

Stand Alone (no timer links)
lvl 79 - Wave of Absolution
lvl 70 - Wave of Piety
lvl 65 - Wave of Marr
lvl 58 - Healing Wave of Prexus
lvl 39 - Wave of Life

[Cymril]

A 10 hit max reverse Damage sheild? Not sure if I understand that. I think I'll use my current one for now. Can someone explain that to me?

[Hulkling]

0.5 cast time, and adds ~78 DPS alone if chain cast, unless your are chain stunning (I.E. mob not hitting anyone, causing the duration to extend beyond recast). Best results on tanking stun-immune mobs.

Plus it stacks.

[Normy]

[riou]

[boukk]

Went on EGN, and saw some post from brael and someone else said we received overcap(87) stun, did i miss something?

From brael :
Christ... guess the bitching will carry from beta threads to here. First of all, bitching here isn't going to get them changed. Second of all, Paladins needed the dps boost. Third of all, it was a way to give them something to make their classes power curve a bit better rather than stopping dead at 87. Fourth of all, if you looked at their spells you would see the .5 cast really isn't a major issue, we still absolutely dominate them in single target hate (if we voice them there's still something like a 15% difference... it's huge). Fifth, if they weren't .5 it would be unfair to them since they're nukes. Sixth, if you really want to make an argument against them, argue that one of them is linked to a long recast stun no one uses effectively giving Paladins a free hate upgrade (beyond the 13 to 12.5 sec spell cycle) when it's only supposed to give them a choice of stun or dps.

From zarzac :

If hate override was not part of that spell, pallys would still have plenty of cool toys as well, the new LOH is very cool, as is overcap stun

[Bonzz]

At first glance I thought Mark of the Crusader was an upgrade to Mark of the Saint, but now I see it functions differently.

However, it does appear, by way of Lucy, that the spell was removed? Lucy is not showing this spell and it was not on the Oceangreen Hills vendor in the preview period.

[Genadinee]

It was on Beta 2 days ago when I went round and price checked everything

[Brohg]

Nothing is final until it's final.

[riou]

It's not on lucy because the spells were added(on beta) like a day or two after the last "patch" that put the rest of SoD spells live on lucy

[boukk]

It is on lucy now.