Righteous Indignation - Major changes on Test Server

[Hulkling]

Its not in the patch notes, but Righteous Indignation has some very significant changes on the Test Server.

The way it was described to me: 20 hits over a short period of time....so its more damage spread out instead of 5 wacks all at once. Its more of a traditional "Burst Disc" now...kinda sorta.

I doubt I'll have time to test it, so if anyone does test it, make sure you look at stacking (along with DPS and all that other basic stuff).

[riou]

[Hulkling]

Update...Aristo says current version on test is broken (no details), but fixed and ready to go for next patch (no details).

Though feel free to mess aroud with it and see whats up.

Also....looks like a Slot 4 Imbue Proc (ty Riou for parse). I *think* thats our BP clicky line proc slot, so it won't stack with those...which I don't see as a huge deal?

[riou]

[Hulkling]

lol

update! Next Test Patch *might* be tomarrow.....we'll find out tomarrow for sure

[riou]

[riou]

If it stays at 20 hit limit and doesnt want it bumped to 25 then should make it a 12 minute reuse instead of 15 , it should atleast be hit for hit the same in the same time period, current one is 5 hits per 3 minutes. (I'd rather have 25/15 since its better!)

More synergy would be nice of course as well, make it ~33 hit with 20 minute reuse and it can match reuses on VR/Pureforge

[Thessiuss]

So if i'm reading this right:

Earnest Fury Rk2
1: Add Proc: Earnest Fury Strike II

Inquisitor's Judgement
6: Add Proc: Inquisitor's Judgment Effect rate mod 800

Spider's bite XVI (for those that use it)
10: Screech
11: Add Proc: Spider's Bite Poison Strike VIII

Righteous Indignation
4: Add Proc: [Spell 25407] with 300% Rate Mod

Also, i rarely use Spider's bite (i'm more a Tonic of Resonant Magic type guy) but with procs, i heard all sorts of stuff. Is it only one has a chance to proc per swing even if on different slots? So essentially we shouldn't be doing IJ and RI on a burn anymore if we want to max damage output? Even if they stack on our already full buff window, wouldn't that mean the 2 will be competing for procs? Maybe there's something i'm misunderstanding about how procs work or about how/if these will stack.

[riou]

[boukk]

Hm , didn't expect that, anyone care to tell what is the intent of the change?
RI was helping sustained, this being changed to more burst? which isn't something we really need, or am I missing something?

[Akalee]

The reuse timer of RI is 15m on test? Can we maybe have the reuse timer at 20m so its consistent with our other burn timer? it was mentioned if its changed to 20m, we need it to be 33 hit/20m instead of the current 20hit/15m reuse timer?

[boukk]

[boukk]

Bollocks , bollocks, bollocks!

Already miss hiting this every 3 mins , this is plain suckage , much hate for this nerf.

[Ughbash]

[boukk]

[Turayalon]

I will have to run some raid parses b4 I make any comments I did notice it will use up all procs b4 raid named are dead usually 1 1/2 - 2 min fights with 500-600k guild burns. I truly havent noticed any changes in the grp game as of yet from the changes on my dps so im not waving any flag yet.

[boukk]

[Thessiuss]

I was skeptical at first (quite) but after some playing around with it i like it a lot better .

[Vaindolf]

Its not the same DPS spike as before (especially on undeads), but it actullay boosted dps on 1min-2min fights with the 20 procs instead of 5 possible at that time. And remember ALL of the 20 procs hits with a 1000% accuracy mod compared to old 5 hits with different accuracy mod.
Would suggest you try it out before you call for a change back.

[Wyvernwill]

I swear the reaction to this is absolutely silly, anyone really looking at it logically... it's not a 'nerf', if anything, it's stronger than before.

Let's take a few points into consideration:
Raid Side - 60 second burn, roughly the same overall damage. Why? 300ppm puts it at about 3-4 procs per minute.. everything I've seen... I tend to see 5 procs, on average, before my 60s burn ends. Considering all hits are 1000% accuracy (versus only one on the previous incarnation) and the hits are stronger than the lowest three hits (the ones with the highest acc mods)... your average damage in a 60 second burn is going to be better, short of tripping all five hits and good rolls of damage (not always typical early on in fights since less debuffs are in).

What isn't included... what happens between the 61-180 second burn area? With the old form... nothing. This form is still producing damage output. It's making more use out of pureforge... which will be down by the next time you click the instant form. I wonder which form is generating more damage?

180+ You get to click one more time... It's most likely behind the new form by 5-15 procs... it's playing catch up without any form of boost... again, the old form falls short.

On the group side - This is a bit different. It becomes more of Passive damage output that's spread across mobs. Yeah, it doesn't have the "Let's instantly shave 15-40% off an undead mob's health" flash to it. You're still going to go through all of the procs, chances are, it's going to increase your damage output against more mobs overall than the normal form does. Again, this is a very simple thought process, you can RI the first mob, but do you only kill one mob per 180 seconds? I tend to go through 3-5 mobs in that time, again it will be more consistent, sustained increase across more mobs than RI was hitting one button every 3 minutes.

What truly makes me chuckle is that people actually act like RI hit all five hits, every time, without fail, for mondo damage. Most of the time, it wasn't all that impressive except in certain instances where you managed to hit a lot of good rolls together at once. The new form is as accurate as the lowest hit of RI, and only short in potency of the highest two levels (it's better than the lower three).

[Nightops]

Both systems have advantages.

I liked the old method because I could chose which mob I wanted to use it against. In group situations I had a tendancy to save the click for certain mobs (ie - undead or named) because I also box a bard and could stack the pull order in some camps.

The biggest advantage I see with the new system, the timer allows you to click and start the refresh timer before a raid event starts. I can usually shorten the refresh timer by 2-3 mins and still use all the procs and have it available again before the raid event ends.

Overall, I don't get the 'wow' factor with the new system, however I'm sure the new system improves the dps. If for nothing else, I tend to click this ability everytime its available during groups.

[Wyvernwill]

Top 10'd (7th place) a 5 minute fight. That's a first for me on non-undead bosses (atleast on a fight over 2 minutes).

[shiftie]

[Barnwyr]

Its a 20% nerf

Old way: Assuming 5 procs every 3 minutes, in 15 min time its 25 procs.
New system: 20 procs every 15 minutes.

25>20

I used to make parses with the old system, new system I don't make them any more. Of course everyone who never logged on before now logs in that we have opened convo.

Plus I could burst DPS adds before and have it refresh in time for the final push on the boss. Not anymore.

In groups, every 3 mins I was #1 on the parse.

A nerf by any other name is still a nerf.

[Atrikz]

Since Hulk is Semi Retired does anyone have a word from the devs about what they intended for righteous indignation?

Is this going to be fixed, working as intended,,,anything else?

I would like to have it as it originally was, but would also just like a definitive answer of what will happen to it and why it was changed.

[shiftie]

They aren't going to revert it back to the way it was. It is best to move forward and hope for the best. This is only a nerf in certain situations and from a fun aspect. I am disappointed by the change but I can understand why it was done. I haven't heard from the devs on the issue but I doubt they would go through the trouble of patching it if they planned on reverting it.

[Vaindolf]

[Barnwyr]

I know that instantaneous is better than random procs and that 25>20.

I used to play a shaman and they were nerfed to the point i didn't recognize them any more, and didn't enjoy playing it.

I just want the nerfing to stop.

[Vaindolf]

Know how? Did some parsing? And do you prefare better ultra fast burns aka 20-30sec or better "raid" burns 120-240 sec burns?
Right now i personally think pallys took a to big leap forward on burn dps vs sustained. On our raids now pallys start compete with bestlords, mages etc on burn nameds, and on undead bosses we start to be on the very top10 list. And yet havent tried a pally in a proper dps groups eighter.
Dont think we gonno dwell on this too much before we get a nerf bat on our heads scaling down Valor rage or something like that.
And comon with that 25 vs 20 hits, dont you get it that with the different accuracy mods on old version, hitting 25 of 25 with that is like winning the lottery. Especially on lvl90 mobs and up.

[Barnwyr]

[shiftie]

Raid burning on farm targets = luxury burns -- you know that there are no other responsibilities except to dish out dps for the next 120-180 seconds. During this time phase you will see an improvement in your burn by a small amount. Short burns of <60s there is potential to do worse. These super short fights come into play in group content as most fights average 40 seconds and drop off downward to 10-20 seconds if you have a full group. These parses aren't ideal for anything and happen to land in the sweet spot for paladins. The original RI would guarantee 5 attempts during that time frame whether it be 10,20 --> 60 seconds which worked out to 5 heavy hits under full discs, including 7th/glyph. This time frame of a burn is now subject to Proc Priority and you could end up not getting 5 procs of RI in this time frame -- this is a rare occasion in 60 seconds but it certainly nerfed the sub 30 second group named burn. I don't think being able to kill a group mob in 9 seconds or less is positive or healthy for the dps state of paladins. This kind of thing could yield retarded super high parses for a 20-30 sec duration and no other dps class was gonna touch us except maybe a twincasting wizard. The positive thing to take out of that conversation/context is that sub 60s burns mean jack squat. It does however get the most exposure because the larger portion of EQ population spends most of their time grouping. The numbers have evened out a bit and people aren't getting their panties in a ruffle as much even though we can lay down some serious wood in these time frames. On a 60s burn if you get anything >5 procs from RI and still proc out IJ you will come out ahead. This does happen a majority of the time it is just more streaky. The good news is that even when 7th fades, glyph is still running and so are VR/pureforge/RI (IJ will have likely proc out) so after 60 seconds you have a better shot at firing more RI procs as competition from IJ has been eliminated. So from 60-120 seconds is the sweet spot for RI procs to proc out to completion but the majority of their higher damage will be done in the 60 seconds that 7th is running.

The big thing to note here on a raid burn is that in the original version only 5 hits were allowed under 7th/vr/glyph/pure and that anything past 5 procs of the new version are getting modded and are at 1000% accuracy. This lifts our dps that would begin to slump post 60 seconds to achieve a more stable burn number. I can tell you right now that 60s burn mobs are not common and we shouldn't even be worried about it. Groupers may have lost some ground but those high bursts in group content were causing a lot of unrest in the community. We did gain a little bit from this change and it is on the practical raid burns of around 2 minutes - 2.5 min. You will still burn hot in 60 seconds with the potential to a "bit" less than before but you will get more modded hits in than you otherwise would waiting for VR/pure to refresh.

Suffice it to say that some of you are looking at this from an odd angle. I've done the parses and I haven't noticed a slip in my 60-90 second pure burn with 7th/glyph and I've seen an increase @ 120 seconds to 150 sec. A current 3 minute burn is falling exactly where I was parsing it at in beta pre change as all effects start to fade and we go back to our normal dps set ups.

Having the dps spread more evenly across causes those Normal uber 30 sec burns to equal out and draw less attention to themselves and is actually a good thing. Don't get caught up in the numerical debate of 25 > 20 hits (those 25 hits only 5 of them had 1000% accuracy) and now all 20 have 1000% accuracy. I recommend parsing it over time and if you have questions on numbers pm me in game and i'll link you parse or 2 if my parser is running.

The parses I have run don't indicate a loss but rather a marginal gain at certain fight lengths. It isn't wise to bite the hand that feeds you. Some of the numbers I see thrown around in here are being quadrupled at the high end by those paladins playing in end game guilds.

In this case I will have to disagree with the consensus being flung around here... we didn't get nerfed, the application of the damage is just different.

[Wyvernwill]

That's exactly what my parses have run across as well. Not one aspect of my DPS has truly slipped. I don't start out firing at 60-70k for the first couple seconds that drops off to, and steadys around 20k by 60 seconds, it's more a fast ramp to 21-24k. My burning, however, is done with whatever MGB's happen to hit the tank groups (usually CoP/Warcry). I never see procs left over by roughly the time 7th + Glyph fades, most (if not all) are gone within the 180 second mark gauranteed. All of my parsed burns were using Ianthe (HoT Tier 4 two hander), with Cleave/Fero 9.

This, however, may differ for those that use things like Panther/Bard song proc/whatever other imbue procs are out there. Those same things are probably also lowering dps because of their competition for procs.

[Barnwyr]

Well I've tried it and I don't like it. Have fun with it if you do.

[Silmare]

Has anyone else had problems using this disc? The majority of the time, I cannot get it to fire off. The button won't depress and I see no icon or anything indicating it's running. I'm using Rk III of it. I can't see any stacking issues. I'm not the only paladin in the guild that is having a problem with it. It's probably something simple, but I can't figure out what's stopping it from working.

[shiftie]

Are you using a /disc command? IIRC there is an extra space in the text name of the disc. When typing /disc Righteous Indignation__RK III. Where the __ = 2 spaces between the letters.

Also, if you are buff blocked when the disc lands it will consume the disc and you'll get the recast but the buff won't take hold. It basically wastes the disc, so be sure that you have a free buff slot when you are clicking it.

[Goodwyn]

Also, double check that if you copied a hot button into your disc window but upgraded from rank 2 to rank 3, you'll need to recopy the hotkey.

Sincerely,
Goodwyn Delverson
Valiant Crusaders
Bristlebane

[Silmare]

Thanks for the replies.

Im not using a /disc command.

I am not buff locked.

Im using it directly from the ALT-C combat abilities window.

And I did remove and replace it when I got the rank III. Ive actually replaced it several times with the Rk III button now because I thought that was the problem. But it still isnt working correctly. The title of the button created directly off the combat ability window shows Rk III.

Sometimes I can get it to depress and stay down for the count. But that is rare. Most of the time it will not depress and no icon is displayed. It almost looks like some other long or short term buff is blocking it, or I am ooe ---- but I get no blocking message and sometimes with zero other long or short term buffs, it will not go down. And my endurance bar is full.

The other pally is having exactly the same issue with it.

I had no problems with the rk II version ever. And occasionally it works with rk III. But more often than not, it doesn't work.

I've never had this happen with a disc before. None of my other discs ever give me this problem.

[shiftie]

I don't ever click it with a mouse. I either use my burn key which activates them all at once and includes the extra __ or I use the Ctrl # to make it work. It could quite possibly be the fact that the extra space in the title of the disc is causing the problem /shrug who knows. I know that there is at least a work around for it using the two above methods.

[Silmare]

It works thank you guys. I put the extra space after the name. And moved it to different hotbar.

[shiftie]

For anyone still reading this and would like the best burn hotkey for this - it looks like this:

/disc Pureforge discipline Rk. III
/alt activate 920; /pause 1
/disc Righteous Indignation Rk. III
/pause 1
/alt activate 6492

That is pureforge, then VR, RI, and then IJ

The reason this is the best - You want pureforge on first b/c it has the longest timer and you want to make the most out of VR. RI should come before IJ because it has a lower proc rate and you want the proc priority to go to it so that it has a better chance of getting more procs off in the short burn period. With the higher proc mod IJ is guaranteed to fire all 20 procs so it will fire off all 20 in 60 sec regardless.

GL