The Spirit Realm

Website · by **Nodden** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:15 pm

Just campaign for low hate on new nukes instead? Only issue atm when "dpsing" lies with CotCS. Heal aggro is not an issue for me at all, at the high end, and I wouldn't want it lowered for a couple reasons.

by **Hulkling** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:18 pm

Website · by **Normy** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:57 am

Ok, but you are looking at lists from several different theories of how to run a paladin. I am the one that wanted a proc for large hate bash, hoping for a better way to generate agro while tanking so I can at least swing my weapon sometimes too. I also argue against the need for SCS as a paladin.

Which brings me to my next topic. What exactly is causing the issue for agro on a paladin? Here is what I do when I'm trying to DPS. I have my self proc up, haste of course, attack buff when I can get it, 5% overhaste, my 2h weap from MMM (steam-something impaler?). I have max accuracy, max CE, ferocity up to my content (think 7), cleave same thing, I hit my trib which gives me heroic STR, double attack increaser, and flurry once in a blue moon.

So I hit from the back, mash bash as often as it pops basically, and will cast my only decent damage crush as often as it pops. I have CS on my weapon for a proc. I'll pop 7th year vet AA and second spire if they are up. I'll click my self-panther proc from Vald. I even use the poison procs, after panther wears off. I've never, ever pulled agro from a tank on a raid using this. Against undead I have to be a little more careful, where I'll usually drop the crush and keep the 2 highest undead nukes. I'll hit holyforge for the hell of it on undead, sometimes I'll remember live mobs too. I'll throw out the reverse DS on the target as I can between swings.

So what are you guys doing that gives you so much more agro than me? Am I missing something else I can possibly burn for DPS? I don't use the glyphs but I think thats about all I'm missing.

by **Gilthanos** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:06 am

by **Gilthanos** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:20 am

Website · by **knytul** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:36 am

Website · by **knytul** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:41 am

im starting to notice an issue here. It seems that since we all play our paladins many different ways, some are trying to dictate what are good ideas and which are not, simply because the ideas are not filling into your current styles of play. Try to think outside of the box when you are posting. Just because something doesnt work for you, doesnt mean it wont work for 100 other paladins. Take Halt the Dead for example. For most it was a very hated aa, but some people love it. There are ALOT of tremendously good ideas going on, please dont go off saying something is a "waste of time" or you are "all against it" simply because it doesnt fit just your style of play. Be Productive. Also, and i say this to EVERYBODY. Get off this kick of "all or nothing" that has FAILED us for the past 10 years. AE agro is a PRIME issue for us. Some people have been posting that 4 target limit is a waste of time and should be unlimited or nothing. Be thankful if you get 4. You could get nothing...AGAIN. If we can find something on the Fury line to boost it up, Be thankful..we can get nothing...AGAIN. See a pattern?

Website · by **shiftie** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:05 am

Website · by **Wyvernwill** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:29 am

Website · by **Wyvernwill** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:34 am

by **Hulkling** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:07 am

Cast time. Get 2 CotCS for every 1 CoC. So compare 794 to 1167. Comes out about right.

------------------------------------------

As for agro: I group heal, melee, CoC, mark, everything, and I've never pulled agro off any of our warriors. Now, if they die then I'm often the 1st to get agro when going balls to the wall, but thats actually a good thing.

Only thing I'm missing is an EoA mask....that might be the issue right there. I wonder if we could get the EoA focus turned into a clicky buff....I realize buffs slots are a premium, but iirc more buff slots are being added. Would that appeal to anyone?

Website · by **Wyvernwill** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:26 am

Website · by **Normy** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:28 am

Ok, then using both crushes to me seems like its the problem, because we already know there is a huge hate component to it. Thats like using the AA stun because you want the healing light proc for your group. Yea, it'll trigger it, but thats a huge amount of agro to risk for a heal. Taking agro from a warrior is a cardinal sin when I'm leading raids. If someone told me they snatched agro because they wanted another 51 DPS I'd probably instruct them to ignore that 51 dps. I get the concept of maxing out your DPS, but not at the risk of killing yourself and maybe risking others. People are 0 dps from the guild lobby.

So rather than take away the hate component to crush, a tool that is widely used for that exact purpose, it makes more sense to try for a line that does not have the huge agro attached to it to swap out for when you don't want the agro. I am not interested in being stuck with only stuns again for attempted agro, especially after I've gotten to like the faster cast times on the crush line.

Website · by **knytul** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:44 am

Hulk i would have to say no on that one, strictly for the buff slot issue. I have enough problems as is with Buff slots. I could use 5 more right now and still fill it up easily. Keep EoA as a focus, just there should be more than maybe 1 or 2 EoA items in an entire expansion... Theres ALOT of tanks in the game and in guilds and to have 1 or 2 chests drop it, and drop it super rarely means that its gonna be a dogfight.

by **Hulkling** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:12 pm

by **Hulkling** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:13 pm

Website · by **Wyvernwill** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:44 pm

by **Hulkling** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:57 pm

by **Gilthanos** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 2:19 pm

Website · by **knytul** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 2:37 pm

by **Gilthanos** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 2:54 pm

Ha! point being DPS classes can't mash every single Nuke in thier arsenal unabated and not expect to get agro. While our "aresenal" isn't exactly an arsenal (yet!), the same concept holds true.

We also come no where near the dps output these classes achieve to pull said agro either. Agro is on a 1 for 1 basis by number of spells cast not dps done. Our undead nukes pull agro so much because they have a ac debuff and a snare component that procs additional agro. I remember chain casting our 2 undead nukes back in TSS and ganking agro. Casting 2 spells vs w/e the rangers are casting.

Lets see...our last mindshear lasted 91 seconds. Ranger in guild cast 29 nukes. 82 Total casts but many of those were abilities procs etc. Anyway 29 nukes just 2 spells, Barrage of Arrows and Summer's Mist both rank 3. I think the most we could cast our two spells in 91 seconds is about 10 times? Give or take. They triple our spell cast output. If we cast 2 undead nukes 30 times in 91 seconds we would have had agro and kept it from about the 14th cast. If we made it that long. This ranger never pulled agro. To be fair he did proc jolting swings THREE times. Which would reduce their over all agro by 5355. And he had 405 swings which is how much agro per swing generated vs our 2h at 117 swings for me. I actually did 2391.9 dps on this fight. With no spire or 7th or holy forge and in a tank group. I did get 3 fists of wu tho. I cast Crush of Compunction Rk. III x 2 Crush of the Crying Seas Rk. III x 3. And I pulled agro lol. Briefly. My pulling agro isnt the point here tho really. DPS casters are pulling agro like you said yes, but they are also casting at 3 times the volume we are to pull agro. This parse info was just to show you the number of spells cast. Both of our undead nukes are 18 recast time. 91/18 is 5 x 2 for each spell is how i came to about 10 casts total for our true nukes. Do you really think looking at this info our agro generation on nukes is ok?

Gilthanos <Triality>

by **karkariace** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 3:28 pm

2 EoA item is actually way more than it s needed, i know all our knight/war have one right now, so do our bards.

Making it more readily aivable would just remove some spirit of the game, looking forward to an item/focus is good, the amount of clicky ngreth added, as an exemple, is way overboard, everyone has them, there s just nothing to look forward to clicky wise, cause it s freakin everywhere.

Website · by **knytul** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 3:32 pm

speak for your gulid alone on that one. i know in our guild half the tanks still dont have one. and tower been on farm awhile as is the rest of the expansion

by **Hulkling** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:01 pm

by **Gilthanos** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:45 pm

Do you even read everything I say? At all? Yes crush was a packaged deal. We got dps + agro. Yet the devs use it against us BOTH ways. Obviously we CANT use it as a dps tool. It can only be used if we want both dps and agro. Yet talk to a dev and they will say we just gave paladins 2 spells to boost dps. THEY CONSIDER IT DPS! If you talk to them about wanting better or more agro or ae agro they say, We just gave you 2 new spells to boost your agro! This is my point. We are going to keep going in circles over this because no one here looks past their own play style. You want more dps and you want more agro you get 1 tool that does both and now you cant use it in every situation. Sorry thats way too short sighted for my tastes. We have the class and abilities to do almost anything, and we have people clamoring to get shit combined so they can do less. So they can jerk off while they play the game. So they can chat via text like voice chat doesnt exist. I argued against having agro on the crush line when it was in beta. In beta it was a bone thrown to us to make up for people upset they saw immune to stun mssg? Because sks get some obscure benefit to help them tank on low cons as well as high cons so we get a DD added to our agro set? Baffling but ok. I wonder if sks would like a dd added to there agro line that counts against their dps? I still think that was a failboat idea. But thats just me. You all realize the dd part of the agro spells you love count against our dps total to the devs right? AND you all want more dps.

I have NOTHING against more spells. If they keep crushes as they are and add more spells fine. The thing is, if you can chain cast them they all count towards dps. Regardless of whether or not you can use them in all situations (i.e. not tanking). Because when you ARE tanking you get to chain cast them for even more dps. Dont you see the issue devs have right there? Hell maybe that would actually be a wonderful way to up group paladins. Frankly I dont see them letting that pass.

by **Hulkling** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:34 pm

Website · by **knytul** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:57 pm

so the Undead bane concept solves all problems it sounds like....

Website · by **Normy** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:25 pm

I find it amusing that Gil references like Hulking has never spoken to devs before about paladin issues.

Anyways. I get what you are saying Gil. However, speaking of not looking beyond a certain play style, look again at what you are posting. You are saying that all paladins should be maxing their DPS, and that since we have spells that do damage (and a ton of agro) we should be able to use them for purely DPS when they are stated specifically as an agro spell first with additional damage added to them.

In any situation that a paladin is tanking, their DPS drops to total crap because they are chain casting agro spells to stay up on the DPS in the group. Crushes help with that kind of situational DPS and provide us with the ability to swing our weapons occasionally too (with the faster recast). Asking for agro to be removed from an agro ability and that is somehow the solution to our DPS problem doesn't make sense.

So lets go with that theory and see how that works out. If agro is completely dropped from our 2 crush lines, then we gain the ability to mash 2 spell gems for just over 100DPS increase. Thats on a burn where we are just doing our meager DPS role. In a group, we don't use them because we are back to chain casting our stuns to hold agro over the ranger in group, so once again our tanking DPS drops to total crap and we run the risk of healing the puller at a bad moment. This makes us an undesireable tank in any area that requires a good puller. Great, sounds fun.

Meanwhile, an alternative to that is to ask for a DPS line, which we can switch to when we are doing our DPS role, in a group or on a raid when we are not interested in ganking agro. They could even link this line to our crushes and stuns, with the concept that they are specifically designed to help our DPS when we don't want agro. Then we have a wide choice, non-damage agro, agro + DPS, or just plain DPS. And it means the devs won't have to recode SCS to only affect certain spell lines, wouldn't have to strip off the agro from our crush line which many use for the exact purpose of agro, and seems like it would satisfy both opinions of this disagreement.

Instead of something more permanent like SCS, where its either you have it or you don't, I'd rather see them add an ability to lower agro on a trigger. Similar to the ranger line, so between group heals that seem to be such a problem for some, this could be used and it would reduce your agro on a single mob.

Website · by **shiftie** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:40 pm

Website · by **knytul** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:50 pm

wow, ALL of you need to read more than the first lines. From what im interpreting here (and i can be wrong) the SCS idea was stated and i quote: "Agro spells are not effected by this." Now this would pertain to basically...Heals and Nukes. Nukes being (at the time being) Undead nukes only. This kind of permanent idea would be a great idea. This would remove the detrimental byproduct of the beneficial ability of healing (or lower it at least), and would allow us to actually dps on undead without having to tank too. There really shouldnt be an arguement here....At All.

Now: Spell Casting DPS. This seems to be where the huge arguement really is. Crushes are being at the moment USED as a dps tool, but in no way are dps. So lets get past this "Crushes are our only dps tool". Were being forced to use them as such just as were being forced to use group heals as ae agro. Its the SAME THING. Get past it already. Moving on:
2 Ideas for Spell Casting DPS (real dps)
1) Undead Nukes being converted into Undead Bane Nukes
2) Shiftie's idea of an AA Nuke on the FoD Line.

Both have beneficial properties but imo 1 weighs more than the other simply because wed have more spells to cast than the other. If they were to still keep em linked, then We could push for 2 new spells to be added just like crushes were. Undead Bane A and Undead Bane B. If only 1, then sure we can go for a Nuke on the FoD line so wed have Undead Nuke A and FoD Nuke A. Either way is up to the developers, not us. So arguing it really beyond this...is irrelivent.

Now this ties back into the SCS concept. Having either one of these great ideas would be great, and the SCS would help out on it to fix our dps issue. This would also NOT affect our agro issue if we play ball and get the Explosion of Hate AE agro tool too. Our healing agro would be fixed, our AE agro problem would be fixed, and wed be on the start of a path for DPS spells for once.

Website · by **Nodden** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:50 pm

Website · by **knytul** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:14 pm

u dont because its ur only source of ae agro?

Website · by **Nodden** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:08 pm

Website · by **knytul** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:06 am

then dont buy it... Just because the AA is there doesnt mean u have to buy it. Theres alot of stuff that comes every beta that ALOT of paladins dont like, but some do, so we support them so they can get the stuff they like. This is a situation where aa's are bein requested some of us do like, and some dont. Be supportive on it.

Website · by **Jace** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:31 am

Because of how SCS is coded already from back in the day the easiest fix without changing code of flagging certain spells not to use it would be to keep the crushes the same. Then upgrade as usual for the next expansion and also add two new spells that are the same thing but without the aggro component. Yes just two nukes I guess but 0.5 second cast time and same resist check as crushes, not that flame of light crap though. Shiftie stated in paladin channel that "would still pull aggro" I really doubt that, if you have rangers and beastlords that can nuke for more dmg then us and outdps us with melee significantly I don't see it happening consistantly. Yeah I'm sure if you group heal a million times on a long fight it's gonna happen but you gotta expect that, plus it seems like most fights in EQ nowadays are designed to burn (or did I miss something recently?)

This way with the two new nukes I'm proposing you could switch out what you want if you doing
1. Undead mob- Use Undead Nukes obviously
2. Live mob- Use the two new nukes I'm proposing that don't have the crush line aggro component (i.e. burning on raid events that don't require kiting/offtanking
3. Any other time (soloing, grouping, raiding but only when not tanking)- Crushes
What's the disadvantage of this? Oh no we have to loot 2 more runs on raids to upgrade the ranks? It costs more plat to buy 2 more spells on day one of the expansion launch? /gasp how dare they.

What I would like to see added is the old spell lines for paladins (yes im sure most of you say this stuff is useless but im all about staying with the old paladin stuff yet still adding new ideas too, I feel its stupid to cancel our spellbook lines that we have had for years). Also If it's to many runes just make the rank 3s that aren't as useful like this buyable for chronobines or something from like a 12 man raid event.

1.Silvered fury upgrade- Okay its not extremely useful but damn its cool to at least do x2 dmg then the fury line on undead only, why it's never been upgraded is wtf.
2 Pacify- Okay come on clerics and enchanters still get it, let's get a piece too even if it's crap thats useless like 5 levels down from theirs as usual.
3. Spook the Dead- Who cares it's fun, yes Im aware fear has changed, damn it it's something new besides copy and paste spell upgrades as usual
4. Bunch of other crap I can't think of we don't get anymore

All I've seen is you guys argue when it started out as just a suggestion for what to ask for or think about that would be beneficial for the next expansion. We do this every expansion and it seems hardly anyone is satisfied with the results when it comes out since we can't decide what we actually want as a whole, it's just like 5 people here want this and 3 people here want that. Let's stop arguing over petty shit and throwing out indirect insults at eachother, last few days I've seen some people I known forever that usually cool with each other in paladin channel at each others throats on this, kinda sucks.

AFK to watch cosby show dvdrips

Website · by **Ughbash** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:49 am

Hmm some people want the aggro on the crush line.
Some people want it removed so they don't gank aggro.
Some have suggested a new nuke to replace teh crush which does not have aggro but people are afraid that devs would count that in with the dps you get from crush.

So would it not make sense to ask for a new nuke, that is low aggro but more dps AND on the same timer as crush?

That way you get your DPS, the people who want aggro can still use crush, and the devs can't expect you to use the new one and crush at the same time.

by **Hulkling** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:03 am

Website · by **Normy** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:46 am

And see my biggest problem with the idea of SCS is that I generally LIKE my healing agro. Thats why I suggested something more trigger-like. At least 90% of the time I use healing agro to my benefit. 5% of the time it never matters, like when I'm chain bursting the MT on a heavy event during a raid, I've never pulled agro off the warrior using my heals. I have never chain casted my agro spells on a raid target I don't intend to tank either. So maybe 5% of my time could I see a benefit from SCS, but I can't expect SOE to completely modify the way SCS works to help me out (like make it triggerable).

So would it be so bad to have a triggered ability (like what rangers have) to reduce hate on a target? Or would that not cover it for those that are having bad agro issues right now? No, it will wouldn't let you chain cast our crush line and not pull agro, but neither would SCS. I'm just talking about those that are having a problem with heal agro.

Website · by **knytul** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:55 am

again all i read there is "this ability doesnt benefit me so i dont like it" so it should be super modified to where it possibly 5% chance could...

Website · by **Wyvernwill** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:03 am

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