lesson of contrition - do you use it, at all?

[dindaur]

after some discussion on the paladins sanctuary i became aware of just how many paladins do not use this spell.

if the design characteristics are causing the stun to be shedded, those characteristics could be called design flaws, and perhaps the spell would then need a redesign.

after all, spells are meant to be used.

[Khael]

Last time I had a spell in that line memmed was Fennin Ro or Xegony, I believe, and we were doing them while PoP was still the newest expansion.

[Nightops]

I still use it on occasion. I keep it mem'd all the time but its the first to get dropped if I need to put up a cure/nuke for the situation.

I use it for chain stunning (when solo) or for the initial stun on incoming before people surround the target. I use it rarely for the push aspect because I stopped bying the AA stun at the first lvl.

[Hulkling]

If you would Din, please include the purpose of this thread, and kindly explain to everyone the huge ration of shit you keep slinging at me for asking the Devs to un-link Akera ("undecided" is the official responce atm), meanwhile insisting high mana/long cast/long recast stuns are a better 3rd agro tool for all paladins 53 and up.

[dindaur]

( double )

[dindaur]

[dindaur]

to give my own response to my own original post, contrition just doesn't fit in to my regular aggro usage setup. i run solumn force, force of timorous, and aa-stun as the dead last basics and then i build from there. i tanked fabled tz which is a ranged fight and for that i needed some heavy aggro so i loaded some extra stuff and i went in with solumn force force of timorous lesson of contrition challenge for honor hand of disruption of course and i did have cease but i never used it, but it was out.

normally on a raid on frostcrypt trash i use solumn force, force of timorous, aa-stun, and i've got the undead DD nuke which i fire as well, and this holds.

on stunnable content like the rune 3 aug i tried to solo, i used solumn force, force of timorous, lesson of contrition, challenge for honor for the rune component, and of course tunaregimp.

those are examples of stunnable and unstunnable content.

[Galelor]

Honestly, this stun could use the lower cast time for the amount of mana it costs... I almost never use this stun line either. This is due to mana cost being so high, and the knockback being a group dps killer.

[Hulkling]

[dindaur]

i wrote a decent response, and then turned off the computer...

here's the second try.

firstly, stop trying to post my own opinion for me~

That is not how i would write a summary for what I think about the current setup.

secondly, nin's a regular poster, not a troll. most people had no opinion, the thread had 4 - 5 participants, you took one stance, i the other, and the rest were indifferent or open to change. i could but wont argue you did not have support, but what is the point? that whole thought process is a waste of time. instead, lets focus on the meat.

Basically, Akera came up. Hulk's view, Akera was useful, then it got taken away, and was no longer useful, and now he wants Akera back, to make it useful again. I suggested why not load an existing stun, because he by his own admission leaves many stuns unmemmed. if akera is the same line as other stuns, why would you argue against that logic and try to grant yourself the stun just for its benefit, against the backdrop of having cease desist and contrition for oh-shit stuns. the gist is all of us use solumn force / force of timorous and aa-stun. we build upon that. when we need more aggro, we have contrition, cease and desist. hulkling's point is because Cont has a knockback, long recast delay, he will not use it. we can ignore the mana cost, because it is not an issue, you will never be casing a stun that long in a fight, especially with a 24 second recourse, 2 casts a minute, with a cost of 300ish? mana, meaning 600ish a minute, so if you had a pool of 6k... you'd have 6 minutes of casting. a 80 paladin has more like 12k+ mana. But then the issue is why not cease / desist? Hulk's reason is the cast time is faster. Because akera is SLIGHTLY faster than cease, he wants it back, and wants to ignore cease. I ask why? and he says the akera method is effective. I'm not convinced. I am not convinced we can just ignore cease / desist / contrition and add akera back. Instead, make cease / desist usable ( in his eyes, to me, they work fine ) or make contrition usable ( in his eyes, again i dont mind the knockback, i never need it on group stuff / trash, just on raid mobs rarely, usually just on the odd raid mob ). I ask have you tried cease / desist / contrition, i do not get a response. i feel hulkling is just being stubborn here, i think if he tried cease / desist / contrition he would have no problem holding aggro. instead, he wants akera just cause'. My response is i dont think we should waste Dev requests on frivolous things, and if the best we can come up with for why akera should come back is just cause' i think its just frivolous. can we still hold aggro? yes. does ANYONE have problems with aggro atm? no. why bring akera back then? on the side note, contrition is a spell brought into play every year with upgrades, it is the easiest spell to change because it goes on the chop block regularly. we may even get a new version this winter. it is also the stun that ACTUALLy works on the content we'd be fighting. i consider old sub 55 stuns a last resort, whether they be more effective or not, i use the higher level tools first, and never find i am unable to keep up etc. my fellow paladins have different tactics, for fun i've fought for aggro with our best guy, and my technique is as good as his. there isnt a big difference, i just use 2x force and aa-stun and chain 'em, i dont lose aggro, which is the point. if you add akera, when you are already holding aggro, you surpass the need of the content by a larger margin. why do that, why gimp content? why purposely make the game easier. when asked if he has tried other tactics, hulk doesn't respond, and instead makes incisions of text from my questions and uses them as fodder for argument. this is food for irritation. at base, i would hate to see us promote a change that would take away from the difficulty of the game. to add aggro without need has consequences, and eats at the integrity of the game. hulk's tactics pale in comparison to the need for the game to retain difficulty and challenge. upgrade where we need it, define need by making the impossible possible, not by convenience.

on the other leg, contrition should be useful to every paladin, not just me, and if the herd says no to knockback, and it doesnt effect game balance any, then axe it and make contrition a regular on spell gems, not some sub 55 shit stun. make contrition akera. dont add more, make what we have better.

[Hulkling]

[Galelor]

[dindaur]

( removed the bulk of this post, it's just unnecessary )


Contrition is a spell with a knockback, that is introduced each expansion with two other stuns that together form three Stun-worthy upgrades. Why is it that the NEW stun has the niche ability? Why isn't it that the level 55 stun is the spell with the knockback, and the NEW stun the fast casting aggro tool it needs to be? This is what I want to discuss.

Do we use Contrition, as a community? HOW unused is contrition? Do we want to Begin to ask for a Change? Do we want to Consider a change? This thread is meant as a place to ask these questions. Perhaps not generate answers, but begin the thought process. What do you think, community.

[ZsaZsa Vavoom]

Between formatting and drama I didn't read most of that. I agree with the sentiment to keep the drama to Sony's boards if you must do it.

re: Lesson of Contrition
Very situational for me. Between the risks of knockback, and the dd component, it is often not useful to me. Ironically, if I do mem it, it is often *because* of the knockback. If we're doing a fight where I know push/positioning are at issue, I'll sometimes mem this to help me push back against the rest of the raid that is reluctant to box the mob. I've also rarely memmed it to try to stun lock mobs that are susceptible to such things. It isn't great, it isn't useless.

[kolor]

We may need to start over on this thread since it is a combination of hate and substance. In the event that it is not going in the trash can, I will add my opinion.

I never use the Lesson line of stuns. If I need knockback, I use Divine Stun (I know the dd stun spell line has a bigger knockback).

Reasons I don't use Lesson line (in order):
1. long cast time
2. big knockback
3. high mana cost

I would use the dd stun line if:
1. cast time is reduced (i would live with 1.5 secs)
2. knockback is eliminated

[dindaur]

someone brought up divine stun, i haven't used divine in years, but if we had a contrition change and knockback was axed i would use divine for knockback, however i rarely position mobs with knockbacks after the push change.

i would like to discuss the balance-factor of knockback on contrition. can we come up with or dig up why this stun has knockback? was there a discussion years ago i / we missed? has it been revealed that contrition's knockback is a balance tool?

[Balkar]

[Rihard]

I've never found much use for this stun line. Even during PoP for stuff like Rathe council, we just had all of our paladins blasting Divine Stun at rathe council mobs to quickly position them. I'm fairly sure I was able to solo position Xegony with just divine stun also. It was useless on rathe due to the DD component, and a bad idea on Xegony because of the aggro generated (remember that war aggro wasn't nearly as good back then). The only real use I ever found for this spell was a third stun that would land on even con mobs for soloing and such. I can't even remember the last time I memmed a spell on this line. The only reason I even have the SoF version is that it wastes a rune turn-in, never bothered buying the Rk1 or Rk2 versions of it.

[Blabberpuss Stryyker]

I recently found good use for LoC doing the Fabled Earth mobs. The one that AE roots everyone was a particularly good use for LoC, allowed me to help re-corner. I keep it memmed now, and only use it for special needs.

[dindaur]

but could you have used aa- knockback stun to do the job, or is contrition's knockback still essential for those niche circumstances

i agree that on that mob it had its use, but then I also did not use my aa stun. I usually just use one knockback tool.

but it can be said i have used contrition on positioning scenarios. however, i do not use contrition for stun-required circumstances,
UNLESS:
- i am fighting stunnable mobs and soloing, where every bit of damage mitigated helps successfully finishing the fight without going oom
- i need the extra aggro ( ultra rare )

i can't recall having to move a mob for at least a year ( thinking raids, in groups you have the option of moving where you stand and having the mob follow. on raids, i normally am not the one tanking the mob that needs moving )

knockback does have its uses
- instances where you are rooted and the mob is mobile
- instances where the mob is rooted
- instances where the mob is messed
- just plain old bad positioning

however is knockback on contrition a good idea, as opposed to having knockback on some other tool?

we have access to aa-stun which has a knockback component. someone posted once the amount of knockback each spell has, perhaps we can dig that up and compare contrition with the aa-stun. does anyone have the knockback list - link of all known spells?

[Luthair]

Personally I don't use the line, nor have I purchased the SoF versions. I've even declined the rk2 several times.

The last time I used the KB spell line was Vex Thal, its useless for normal normal circumstances because of the knockback (as well as high mana cost & cast time), and not particularly useful for positioning with the incredibly long recast.

[Finhorn]

I found a use for this spell for the first time in probably ....well ever a couple months ago. I use it when 1 grouping Slothgar Attendants. Perma rooted and it lands always, less hits on me = good. Only use Ive ever found for it to this day. Only time its ever been memed as well.

Id use it alot if devs would stop puting a dd on it as its pushback is better than divine stun. So either add another few units to divine stun or drop the dd effect of lesson and Id be more than happy to use it on certain raid events, otherwise in group setings KB is 110% useless to me.

[Peaky]

I very rarely use(d) this line raiding; the last time I can remember was years ago doing Tacvi. I would use it to keep the ukuns in check on Xxeric and Tunat, in conjuction with my other stuns that actually stunned the mobs.

The only time I use(d) this line soloing was when I was trying to push people or mobs through doors (when it used to work).

[Brohg]

Funny, my guild considers knockback stun nearly a core competency of Paladins. We rely on our paladins for positioning mobs (trash, bosses, adds) weekly, daily even.

[dindaur]

brohg, knockback need is determined by the content being tackled, and then wiggle room for dealing with positioning.

in my guild, we don't really use knockback often.

someone brought up sothgar, its a great example of a mob where contrition DOES get used, or should i say, a fight where I WOULD use contrition. However, I don't think it's because of the knockback persay. Fighting mobs that are ranged ( at least we do range them ) and you want them stunned for as long as possible, since they suck on their melee. i think? I don't remember exactly WHY i wanted to keep them chain stunned, but there was some reason for it, and i held my goos with solumn force force of timorous and lesson of contrition. perhaps they hit too hard. perhaps using chain stuns totally gimped their dps. i think thats exactly what it was.

outside of this fight, i have not needed in ashengate or frostcrypt to move a mob with stun yet. Now there's the zombie fight in frostcrypt where you're rushed with about 8 zombies which all need to die roughly at the same time. These mes, one may be out of range of the AE'ers, and it gets tossed back into the pack. However they wouldn't use contrition. the DD would break the mes. the zombies hit for alot and that could kill the paladin. they'd probably be using divine stun.

in storm spirits we used knockback a bit more often. this was back when the melee push was much higher. mobs could be near ledges, or pits. or near walls. walls that couldnt be used. or getting close to aggroing something else. usually something that was bad to aggro. or perhaps just to avoid a few extra adds.

in ashengate, the group zone, fighting up east wing, past the drakes and drop off, before the eggtenders, where the drakkin have a sort of fortress, with a second floor and a staircase leading to it, and a mob up those stairs that gives credit for a faction task. fightin in close quarters near roaming mobs, positioning is key. basically if you get too close you aggro about 20, heh. the knockback at the right time can keep it away from other mobs.

however, again, divine stun does this as well. and again, i never use both of them. usually ONE cast of contrition is enough. usually you can ask the tank to move the mob. on messed mobs you can't control the mobs positioning as a messer, so the knockback can be more helpful there. but again, contrition can't be used on messed mobs. its breaks it.

[Rihard]

[Brohg]

Those blobs get CCd? I think we always just let those blow up on their own since they couldn't kill anyone.

Rihard, we also use Paladins to cast Brells, since they're 30% better at that than rogues are.

[dindaur]

i think we've got our fights mixed up

ah yeah, it's me, those blobs i described, they're ambersnout.

those blobs that explode tipped me off, on our sothgar run i'd just go play mine-killer hop over 'em and self cure / heal well away from the raid and it'd save us quite a few hits.

but the stun -lock described above is ambersnout

[Jace]

Part 1 of the post (the Contrition part!)

I use/used this spell line on 2 events. Besides that it's lost it's luster over the years imo and is just our spell line for nostalgia (a few others may disagree).

*Sothgar's Attendents (Ashengate), since they are permarooted and it doesn't annoy melee. Very effective once they hit enraged. (Yes Finhorn I know you already said this omg)

*The Overseer of The Cryptguard (Frostcrypt 2), for the adds. 1-2 Paladins can crowd control the entire event with a combination of Contrition and fast stuns while using cycle through nearest NPC. A wizard or two can then 1-2 nuke them down. Rest of raid can attack the boss and heal the tank/rampage tank. Best time ive ever seen to use this spell line.

Part 2 of the post (the Hulk/Dindaur battle!)

I think akera is still useful and used it for years including before ancient stuns were created, also my question is has anyone ever found a rough estimate of the hate amount on it? I would assume it's 1000 but I don't look at numbers, just curious been wondering for years. Trial for Honor rank 3 works great for me as a 3rd spell of aggro, but the 0.5 sec extra cast time I can see annoying some.

Hulk you going to Vegas again this year?, Couldn't find you last year at the open bar!

[Dorillion]

I have only used the KB stuns in AG north for kiting with stuns during Dyn'Leth event. (when we got lvl 80 and it stuck one these)

Otherwise I woud never dream of memming it, I havent used these in years really the KB part of it is why.

[Jimmeedeen]

Rarely do I have LoC memmed. As most others have noted, it's use is constrained to a very few situations. With Divine Stun and other classes getting knockback abilities (Chantas bouncing mobs all over the place ) I find the need for a knockback stun to be less and less.

Though, I do have to admit I would love to hear the history as to why we have a stun with knockback.

[Khael]

2-3 wizards using instanukes is all you need on the FC2 aug event. The rest of the raid can dps the boss. Stunning them is rather pointless when the stun casts slower than a wizard can kill them.

[dindaur]

[Ughbash]

[Jace]

[dindaur]

i wasn't talking about the aug encounter, but the guy who is in the room where the h2h aug drops. i haven't done it enough to remember the name.

[Hulkling]

[Hulkling]

[Ghirador]

loc is almost never used because it has too many unwanted effects. some suggestions for redesign.

1. no dd
2. no knock back
3. faster cast time
4. ae stun
5. more hate

as it stands, i almost never want a slow casting, knockback, dd stun in my spell line up. when i solo i kill undead almost all of which are stun immune. when i raid dd and knockback is a big no no. group xpsing you don't need 3 stuns memmed ever.

[dindaur]