The Spirit Realm

The only undead in PoP are trash (unless you consider the tier 1/2 named not trash).

The only times I've seen a paladin reaching top tier dps vs undead are:
a) Old Intensity of the Rersolute
b) Parsing with YALP which in most cases will be double counting slays.

From my parses vs. live mobs, I usually see mid-high 300s dps (using Ture 2hp + tunat aug 84/34 i think). My best was 380ish vs ranger 2.0 boss in WoS. Parses of the highest tiered-Pallies with Fero/Cleave 7 + 100+ Acc and high CE are not indicative of the average* Pals capacity, and a similarly geared Zerk will outright school them in 90+ % of all content in game.

My parses vs Undead have all been streaky, because in all honesty, (exp) mobs die either too fast for an accurate parse (usually biased by random lucky streak), or are on raids where I'm too busy doing other things to keep a straight up DPS parse going. Of the supposed* parses listed, the factual nature is in question for 2 reasons: 1. Yalp parser was known for counting slays twice- once as a "Critical Hit" value, and again as its own damage, effectively giving all slay damage the appearance of double their value. I have no idea if/when this issue was addressed. 2. We have no detailed accounts of when the suggested parses actually happened, what pallies performed them, what buffs were provided, what clicky's, what AAs, etc etc... to verify validity.

I do feel that a baseline slaymod AA line may be in order, Ias well as a tiered-structure for upgrade(s) to Holyforge. am not sure where I stand on the burn-disc concept, as Pallies are essentially, not a burn class. Versus Undead, we should be amongst the best of DPS, with enough time/AA/weaponry/aug effort put into the toons imo. The knight is supposed to be the ultimate weapon against undead no? Versus live mobs... our DPS is THE lowest of all melee (including bards )-- the tradeoff for supposedly higher defensive capacities cough*monk-void-tanks. Sony has nudged us slowly* in this direction, as Slayers of the Dead. Slay/Annhilate/Vanquish Undead AA are (in total) reqd 75 to max, as are maxxed DPS AAs.

The type of supposed solo-ability available to any lvl 65-70 Paladin are simply unrealistic. From 71+ and -AFTER- defensive and Heal AAs are near maxxed (200+ AA), solo-ability starts to become an option. As a plate tank primarily, no one wants a pally with ok-ish DPS, that can't tank worth their salt. So the only pallies being heavily affected by steady, "current-max lvl" subsequent AA upgrades are those at the top of their game. Why should hard-chargers NOT be rewarded with finally seeing the benefits of their lore-based Strength against Undead? Considering that at high end, Monks, Bards, and Clerics can often tank content for periods in AG and FC, I dont think that continuing the heritage of Paladin as Undead DPS is undue in the least.

Comparing us to Zerks, or any other melee DPS is not a fair comparison, as we are the ONLY melee whose DPS is decidedly content-limited. Try to bear in mind that in the entirety of the game, I would guesstimate** a total percentage of 12-15% or so of mobs(?) are undead. Zerks and all other melee will STILL out-DPS paladins hands-down on 85-88% of all the content in game. I don't feel our niche is overpowered in the least.

Finally, I hope that we'll see more positive replies on the original suggestions, or continue to offer new, creative AA paths to further our potential in this area. If non-Pallies prefer to continually criticize... it is your option to do so. Just bear in mind that this post was not directed at those the non-Paladin Community, nor meant to stir tempers. It was meant to field a reasoned approach to suggest continued Undead DPS, through overdue upgrades to existing disclines (HF), as well as assist in contemplating new AA lines to explore in this area, our BEST suit of specialty. Please move forward in this direction. Thanks again all
(Thanks to those who have managed to stay on track with the intent of the original Post!)



*If anyone has actual parses to throw in cool, also- please verify that the slays are not* being double counted via Yalp bug.
**Additionally, if anyone has an accurate number of total mobs in game vs. undead in game for factual numbers, feel free to post here

This isn't detailed parse information or anything, but I asked a guildie about the slays being double counted in Yalp. His reply was that he doubted it because EQCompanion gave very similar results.

Ok a couple coments:

Monk void tanks. Voddance lasts 12 seconds, ranger weaponshield lasts 24 seconds. Neither one comes CLOSE to tanking anywhere nearly as well as a paladin. I don't think there is a monk, rogue, or zerker on any server who can say tanking three at a time in FC is no problem. Maybe a zerker but I would be suprised.

The reason I used and asked for DPS of high end paladins such as those with cleave 6, fero 6, 100+ Acc and 2.0/2.5 was because we were seeing how the high end DPS compared to the high end DPS classes on undead. Forinstance as a monk with 2.0, Cryptwood tonfa (with 3 damage aug), accuracy 135, cleave 6, fero 6, my usstained DPS gets blown away by paladins in Frostcrypt.

No, these are not AVG paladins, but then its not fair to compare teh "avg" anguish paladin using warspear fo vexation to a berzerker or rogue who is faming frostcrypt raids. I tried to get an apples to apples comparison.

Soloability, a well geared paladin say anguish level can easily solo at 70 due to three things. Good AC, Ward of Tunare, insane undead DPS. They can solo for eitehr XP or old raid mobs (see Bagar the Sexy teh Sexy's thread no I soloed it). For a monk and I suspect a rogue or a zerker, soloing means not groupign your shambot. The inability to heal coupled with taking signifignatly more damage (due to less AC) severely limits our soloability. Sure we might be able to solo a mob in zone_x if we blow our damage disc (21 min refresh) and our defensive disc (4 min refresh) but thats not good for xp.

As for the limitation of say 10-15 percent of the content being undead, remember when XPing you pick where you go for xp. From level 65 to 75 max AA it woud be possible to do nothing but undead heavy areas, and be fighting Dark blue to yellow the entire time.

Unrest Mission (primarily undead mob level usually 68 so dark blue to 73)
Arcstone undead (dark blue to 70)
DoD missions (lots of undead in Ilsalin Some dark blue to 75)
Ilsalin iteslef (I think mos are about 72 so yellow to 70 and dark blue to 75).
Boneyard (varies but at least dark blue to 75).
Frostcrypt (yellow to 75)

All of these places other then Frostcrypt is soloable at some stages of progression.

Paladins as tanks IMHO have it probalby better then any other tank for the group game, to keep asking for more seems to me a bit much. Would you give up your slay series for the extra DPS you seek on live mobs? Say an offensive discipline that would put you ahead of Shadow Knights or non-discing warrirors when used? Don't forget you will already outdps a warrior who has to use sword and board simply because of the insane ratio on knight 1 handers, and as Raid mobs get tougher it is more common to see a warrior swap to sword and board when tanking after he has built up aggro.