1hs vs. 2hs

[Sir Lucan D`Lere]

Edit: I am assuming Slay Undead DPS from behind a mob.
Ok, I didn't know if this belonged in the equipment discussion or the AA discussion so here goes.
Recently, I got a and was thinking of augging it with To make it a 97/32 One handed weapon. Now, I have a Augged with a and , and I have maxed AA and atk. Now I was wondering, which would be stronger? the 97/32 weapon or the 111/40 +1 magic + 1prismatic weapon with the 12 ranks of speed of the knight? I know the ratio is greater on the first one but was wondering how much the two handed AAs actually do for us? Any idea? The assumption is there is no riposte or Bash damage factored in. Thanks for your help.
If it helps, here is a link to my Magelo

Also if the 2.5 were factored in, would it be better than the other weapon? Thinking of Slay damage btw.

[dindaur]

in terms of dps?

[Sir Lucan D`Lere]

[dindaur]

right, well the faster weapon will score more slays simply put, however the 2hander aa's that generate more swings dampen the advantage. by exactly how much? i don't know. perhaps one of our other paladins can quote you the parsed gains of the aa's in question.

[Hulkling]

I pestered the Devs forever in last Beta for an undead parse dummy that was promised since 2007 Fan Fair, and they totally dropped the ball on it. This was one of the many things I wanted to parse out.

One other thing to note, is the higher dmg bonus on 2 handers is added after the slay value is calculated, so its a non-factor for the most part. I'm guessing that 1h and 2h will be very close in terms of Slay DPS, but the 2h will have a slight edge due to SotK AAs. Its very hard to get an accurate comparison without being in a controlled setting.

[Sir Lucan D`Lere]

[Hulkling]

[Sir Lucan D`Lere]

[Khael]

Um, the slay damage is a straight multiplier on the crit damage, which includes the dmg bonus (but no ranks of VW). The best DPS weapon will be the best slay DPS weapon.

[dindaur]

i believe it was seperated from crits, a more knowledgable paladin can confirm.

[Khael]

Ah, might've been changed then, my bad if so

[Hulkling]

[Galelor]

Why don't you search for "Slay Undead".

I have a post with all the forumals outside of slay via bash. You can figure out from there without really having to parce through game data (at least you can see, in theory, the max slay output per weapon.)

Hulking, sticky that Slay Undead post please. Myself and others worked really hard on it, and to my knowledge, it remains correct.

[Galelor]

viewtopic.php?f=38&t=4603&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=Slay+Undead&start=0

[ZsaZsa Vavoom]

Because the damage bonus starts to become noise in the overall equation once we can slay, the easy way to look at it is, "Whichever weapon has a better ratio will lead to better dps". The only thing that starts to confound this is the existence of AA's that only apply to 2h dps.

[dindaur]

does galelors post account for 2hander aa's?
if not, can we get it updated to include them?

[Galelor]

[dindaur]

no clue either

[dindaur]

raided frostcrypt last night. me weilding the epic, 1k dps, a guildmate weilding the fabled 1hander, 900 dps. on a boss fight with multiple mobs. by no means should you look at this as the typical result. but thats what i got. another guildmate parsed 600 on the same mob, using his epic.

slay is streaky, and the margin overshadows the relative gain and loss of either of the two weapons. however the max possible output may be something we could determine.

[Luthair]

An advantage with one handed weapons for this would be bash damage, while not significant shield bash is significantly higher than 2h-bash.

If I recall correctly, one of the AAs which claimed to only add swings for 2-handed weapons worked for 1-handed as well.

[Khael]

Actually, with changes to how bash code works, I think they screwed up bash for 2h somehow. My regular 2h bashes are now around 200-250ish, not that much worse than shield.

[Hulkling]

Aye, 2-hand bash got the same revamp as regular bash. The primary damage comes from the bash skill level for both. Shield AC gives a slight damage bonus with regular bash. For 2-hand bash, the AC on your 2-hander does the same thing (yes this is intentional).

When I parsed it a while back, the damage bonus from AC is increased by 6 or 7 (depending on rounding) every 40 AC. So the difference between a 160 AC shield and a 80 AC 2-hander is roughly 13 damage. AC augments will bump your damage bonus to the next tier, as shown below:

lvl 80 war, no AAs, 320 bash skill
5 AC - 215 max dmg
30 AC - 215 max dmg
35 AC - 215 max dmg
40 AC - 222 max dmg
55 AC - 222 max dmg
65 AC - 222 max dmg (35 AC + 30 aug)
80 AC - 228 max dmg (55 AC + 25 aug)
85 AC - 228 max dmg (55 AC + 30 aug)

I've seen no evidence that any of this has changed since my parse.

[dindaur]

interesting, also so little damage! don't suppose we could come up with a dummy atk / delay for a bash given a set ac value?

[ZsaZsa Vavoom]

I know I've recently performed 2h bash slays for over 6k. I can't imagine I can do much more than that with a shield.

[dindaur]

perhaps it's kindof like the relative difference between the 1hander and 2hander dps then, being that the 1hander might be less, but the slay multiplier is so large that it is much larger than the relative differences in dps, however the MAX slay on either could be different, WOULD be in fact for the LARGER base damage weapon

and similarly then for bashes, which the new bash changes upped bash damage, perhaps shield bash damage is still slightly ahead? this is speculation, perhaps someone else knows better. However if one was higher than the other you would see a higher max damage on the higher AC shield ( well as long as it broke the necessary additional AC needed Hulk stated to up a damage level ) OR in the case of a comparison with 2handed bash perhaps the shield would have a SMALL innate advantage over the 2hander although if they BOTH benefit from the new bash changes then PERHAPS the difference has been ERODED greatly. so, higher MAX slay off a shield, Maybe, but relatively Similar average slays between the two of them. Just like the Epic versus the Fabled 1hander from Water.

[Sir Lucan D`Lere]

Went and got some Parses done (on living mobs with a friend tanking him so ripostes don't factor in will get some with ripostes later). The fight took about 20 to 30 minutes each time, so they were nice long parses, here we go. My only buffs were group leadership atk, a clickie with savage guard, and a haste potion. Neither weapon had a proc, no proc spells were on, no Damage modifers were on. This is a "pure" baseline parse (with haste added just to speed things up lol). I will include the Bash DPS, but I didn't really bash all that consistently unfortunately. These were done with Max AA + 30 stored, so your results may vary. Oh and a final note. The parse ran from 100% to 10%, at which point I stopped the parse (to make sure no finishing blows were included).
2235 atk (despite the 1 heroic str)
101 accuracy (93 on the two hander, since axe has 8 accuracy)
Fero V (from a bazu seal)
Cleave V (from a bazu seal)
Maxed AAs
Maxed Worn atk

Two handed run 111+1magic+1prismatic/40
Time approximate 20 minutes
Total attempted attacks 1371 (weapon only)
Total attacks missed 404 (weapon only)
Total hits 967 (weapon only)
Accuracy 70.5% (weapon only)
528.1 DPS (weapon only)
29.9 DPS (bash)
558 DPS (combined)
Critical hit % 12.1 (weapon only)
Total Bash damage 35873
Bashes connected 164
Average damage per bash 218

One handed run 97/32 (put in the Gukta Raid Aug)
Time approximately 26 minutes
Total attacks attempted 1957 (weapon only)
Total attacks missed 548 (weapon only)
Total hits 1409 (weapon only)
Accuracy 72% (weapon only)
469.6 DPS (weapon only)
24 DPS (bash only)
493.6 (combined)
Critcal hit % 11.1 (weapon only)
Total Bash damage 37755
Bashes connected 163
Average damage per bash 231
It should be noted that although this parse was longer, I bashed 1 time less than the previous parse (go figure)

According to this, with 90% effective haste and only two atk buffs, the two hander already has about 58.5 more DPS then the one hander. I figure any buffs on top of that will increase it further. I know this isn't a perfect parse, and doesn't really answer the undead question (unless I go back and remove all the damage bonuses from both parses) but it seems with 12 ranks of speed of the knight, the two hander with the worse ratio still wins. Will come back once I do some figuring to see what the difference is.

Warning: Crazy Paladin Logic to Follow
Edit: I forgot that I had a Cleave V Bazu seal, which will probably effect this data, but I figured it effected both equally. You may ignore this section if you wish.
Ok, this may not be perfect, but I figured it was worth a shot. To understand what I did, you will need a bit of information. My parse Gamparse also gives total damage done and total number of connects. To effectively remove the damage bonus, I took the number of hits that connected multiplied it by the damage bonus and subtracted it from the hit total. Then calculated a new DPS based off that. It should in theory give some Idea about what the slay DPS would be, since damage bonus goes in last. Also, I am ignoring the bash damage, since they were so similar and so small, and not done to great consistency.
Two handed weapon damage only
Damage done 634234
Time 1201 seconds
Damage bonus 66
Total hits connected 967
Damage by bonus 63822
Damage without bonus 570412
DPS without bonus 474.95 (rounded up)

One handed weapon only
Damage done 737697
Time 1571
Damage bonus 18
Total hits connected 1409
Damage by bonus 25362
Damage without Bonus 712335
DPS without bonus 453.43 (rounded up)

So, assuming I did my math right (I will double check it or provide the parse upon request), without the bonus factored in, the two handed weapon will still out damage the one handed weapon against the undead. Hope this helps out, lol. If not, ignore this part and the first part still works Edit: I forgot to figure out the effect of my Cleave V item (which does not affect slays, but affects both weapons equally).

Warning: More Crazy Paladin Logic Ahead
Well, let's have some more Math Fun
Two hander
Attempted attacks 1371(two handed only)
Time 1201
Time 20.02 Minutes (rounded up)
Attacks per minute 68.49
Theoretical attacks per minute with 32 delay 85.615

One hander
Attempted attacks 1957
Time 1571
Time 26.18 Minutes (rounded up)
Attacks per minute 74.74
Theoretical attacks per minute with 40 Delay 59.79
Even though the second weapon is faster, it doesn't provide that many more attacks. I attempted to convert one delay to the other by multiplying the delay of one weapon then dividing by the delay of the other, but this is EQ and things don't always work so simply (due to the round off in delays). Still, I figured it would be interesting to see how many more attacks Speed of the Knight adds, and it seems to be 14% (Take one of the two handed attacks per minute and divide by the other one handed attacks of the same delay) Anyone know a 40 delay one hander I can properly parse to see approximately how many more attacks per minute 12 ranks of Speed of the knight would add?

Nm: Found a wurmslayer so I can go back with that. Anyone know a 32 delay two hander (not from raids)?

[dindaur]

thanks for sharing parses. slay is streaky and the streak is a larger realm of values than the difference between the two weapons. meaning you may see either one win the slay competition. that is my paladin logic

[Hulkling]

[Brohg]

Those parses need to have #swings included, please.

[Sir Lucan D`Lere]

[Sir Lucan D`Lere]

[frocus]

Lucan if all you need is a weapon at same delay dawnlight zweihander from Dragonscale Hills has a 32 delay like your 1 hander. It is easy to acquire and even tho the dps would be suck it would allow you to parse the swing increase from SOTK AA.

[Sir Lucan D`Lere]

[dindaur]

thulgar frostcrypt

epic 2.5 v fabled 1h

1141 dps epic / 1143 dps 1hander

discs:
both used hf

aa's:
epic wielder has max aa's

augs:
green crystallos stone / blooddrinker's fang in the epic,
rune 3 aug in fabled 1h

effects:
both have fero v

raid buffed

[Sir Lucan D`Lere]

[dindaur]

me, 1hander user in the test - http://eq.magelo.com/profile/1381581
arny, 2hander user in the test - http://eq.magelo.com/profile/963196

that should answer accu /atk

arny has 75 accu, 400 ( max ) atk
I have 136 accu, 350 ( max ) atk

[Finhorn]

Didnt see you mention it but X amount of cleave difference could make your parses differ as well. How do those match up?

Edit: NM just looked myself both Cleave 5.

I got no idea tbh now :p

[Khael]

Streak. I've had parses between 800 and 2000 with practically the same buffs going, using 2.0 and only ~300 atk and pitiful accuracy. Thulagar is a pretty short fight, just like Shade (our fights last ~140-170 seconds at most). Two prime examples, using Shade parses;

http://dakoth.ath.cx/eq/parses/20080310 ... hade.html# - 1850 dps.
http://dakoth.ath.cx/eq/parses/20080328 ... hade.html# - 1000 dps.

I have where I do 1977 dps, but I believe I've had some gear and AA improvements in that one, so it's not as accurate.

[dindaur]

it'll take alot of parses to get a clear picture

[shiftie]

my guild is mid tier - still raiding TSS

on the straight FC fights I have parsed relatively high

on a 9 minute fight playing ramp tank ( the ramp was really weak) - I parsed for just over 2k sustained dps

on Grenwald without the over cap dex (bloodworg) and without bard overhaste I hit 2351dps

Overall just wanted to add that 2hs will show a much greater yeild on overall dps when it comes to undead. With a cleave VII focii you will crit more often and at max dmg with epic or something a little high up the scale you'll be seeing normal hits for 900ish and crits for around 2.5k. The 1h weapons just don't show that kind of output. Our rogues are weilding the fabled daggers and I manage to land in the top 5 on the dps charts just about every time. We have several other paladins in the guild and some use 1hs - maybe they are super lazy but I destroy their 1hs dps time and time again.

taking a mob to 3% health in one combat round in illsalin is kinda fun
now if only they'd unlink the nuke chain so i could finish the sucker off.

shiftie