hulking

[shiftie]

what aa did you submit for round 2?

[riou]

I would imagine it's the round 2 thread in the beta sections down below

[shiftie]

log into serverwide chat joker... i nearly thought you quit.

and this was more or less so that people not in beta can view the list.

[Hulkling]

Yeah I submitted that older list from the Beta section a while back. Knytul has been in contact with Elidroth recently and he submitted that new one. I'll see if I can dig it up.

[Hulkling]

Judgement of the Inquisitor: Armor of the Inquisitor AA is an emergency tanking ability, and this would be a sister burst dps ability on the same timer (and re-cast of 15 min), so we can only use 1 or the other.

Idea: Imbue DD proc on Slot 6 (so it can stack with our other procs). Higher ranks can increase the damage amount. Judgement of the Inquisitor Strike:

- 3 ranks at 800, 1000, 1200, DD proc respectively.
- Or, can retro-fit it to lvl 70 to help lower lvl paladins as well: 9 ranks - 400, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900, 1000, 1100, 1200
- 20 "charge" limit. Meaning it would fade after 20 procs fired off.
- rate mod of 400(?), which would give it 10(?) procs per minute. I.E. to make the 20 procs last ~2 minutes.
- Duration of 5 minutes. Long enough to use up the 20 procs, but not too long to exploit by "pre-loading".
- 300 magic resist check similar to other special procs....its gotta land!

So with 20 procs of 1200 (24k total), we're talking base 26.6 DPS increase over the course of 15 minutes. Naturally DD crit AAs would raise that, so maybe 35 DPS at best. Not uber or anything, but a nice little much needed "burst" ability.

Crushing light - Paladin aa that adds a DD recourse splash like ranger summers spell. Basically so that we get an extra chance at a DD to fire like MR each time we cast a crush.

Bash of Disruption: Force of Disruption AA is 3000 hate + uncapped interupt, so similar to above this would be the sister DPS version on same timer, cast time 0.5 sec, and re-cast base of 30 sec (9 sec after Rush to Judgement AAs maxed), so we can only use 1 or the other.

Idea: Bash Skill Attack. Kinda like Barrage of Arrows, but Bash instead of Archery, and single target. I'm thinking if it just has a decent resist check instead of "unresistable" then it'd be ok to keep the uncapped interupt. Probably also add endurance cost to it depending on dmg amount (End makes more sense than mana).

Hastened Holyforge: Holyforge Disc is currently on a 72 minute recast. Would be great to get this down to 36 minutes, similar to how the original 3 ranks of Fervent Blessing AAs takes LoH from 72 to 36 (12 minutes per rank). Holyforge has never been all that spectacular, so I don't think 36 minutes is too much to ask.

Righteous Kill (Killshot): Talked about this previously. The popular effects are Damage Shield + AC. Don't have any specific details on numbers, but in viewing other Killshot AAs, a hefty buff would be appropriate. Plenty of Slots open for damage shield stacking, but AC might be problematic. Will give you an /assist if theres any stacking issues.

Gift of Resurrection 2: 96% rezz plz

Hastened Beacon: 5 ranks - reduce recast of Beacon of the Righteous by 1 minute per rank. (Elidroth already said this ain't happening FYI)

Armor of the Inquisitor: 3 moar ranks plz! Increase duration, AC, and heal mod (as per previous ranks).

Lay on Hands 18 (modify add/request): Following the exsisting pattern, it'd be Base 700, HoT 175 modifiers. Its looking like hitpoints are going to skyrocket again, so definetly need another rank here to keep pace. It'd actually be best to add this in for the initial December release?

Not sure how Gift of Life (ToTT LoH) will work here, because its currently coded for rank 17 of LoH. Do we have to buy more ranks of Gift of Life to stay equal to LoH? Cuz that'd be kind of borked imho. Can always set Gift of Life to rank 18 LoH for now, then possibly make future ranks of Gift of Life free based on level (similar to LoH ranks 1-10)....but of course can deal with that later down the road.

Divine Hand: Self only LoH-Based "Divine Intervention" - Bestows the favor of the gods upon you, granting a second chance at life should you fall in battle. Consumes Land on Hands when triggered. Dying when LoH is still available is a Paladin's worst nightmare (it happens a lot!). Obviously it'll do nothing if LoH is already grey-ed out. Plus not sure if you can make it passive or if it'd have to be a buff....either way works for us, whatever is best for you.

Basically, can just make it a regular DI at the same value of LoH 18, on the same timer, similar to Gift of Life AA (ToTT LoH). But, it would then have the same issues as Gift of Life for future scaling that I mentioned above. Again can deal with that later.

Blessing of Life (modify/add request): Moar please! Ranks 7-9 (+60 per) that were just added only bumps the base up to 600....thats pretty low in all honesty because the PPM is not so hot. More ranks would work, however, it would be preferred if ranks 7-9 were beefed up a bit. Possibly double up the heal per rank at 120, that'd set the base heal at 780. Definetly wouldn't mind paying a little extra AA for that to happen.

Blessing of Light (modify/add request): still borked, but beyond that... Talked about this in AA IRC - In addition to increasing Proc line damage each rank, would like it to add a 1.0 second Stun to the proc as well. Each rank can increase the stun cap according to level required (Rank 1 cap 83, Rank 2 cap 84, Rank 3 cap 85).

Backstory: Healing Light AA gives us a chance to trigger a small group heal whenever we cast a stun. It only works on casted stuns or imbue proc stuns (does not work off of weapon procs). Very cool AA. Now, there is a clicky imbue proc from PoTime (Symbol of the Planemasters) that imbues a Stun proc, that does not stack with our normal DD proc, but it can trigger Healing Light.....thus the delima!

Since our Devout Fury line is only 2 PPM which cannot be increased, the Healing Light trigger is somewhat low % chance, and the group heal is only 800 base, I don't think "best of both worlds" is too much to ask for here. And, if it matters, this AA was created before our Crush spells, which are on the same timers as our stuns....meaning we don't use stuns as much as we used to....I.E. fewer triggers.

Can increase the cost if need be, or even make this a new AA if you feel its necessary.

Group Heal Over Time: Similar to the cleric version Celestial Regeration AA - same duration but smaller heal amount. Nice heal for nasty AEs, and something to give us more use out of MGB (and a reason to purchase Hastened MGB).

Group Armor of the Inquisitor: Always thought this would be a nice group effect to survive multiple add chaos, and something to give us more use out of MGB (and a reason to purchase Hastened MGB).

[Uhaen]

Hulk,

Just on the burst dps suggestion -- not that I'm planning on looking a gift Dev in the mouth, but is a 120dps burst over the course of two minutes really something to look forward to? I've been retired a bit, but as I remember I could do max overhaste about 1.1k dps with Corrupted Soul Piercer; going up from 1.1k to 1.22k might be effective back in Gates of Discord, but we're 10 expansions past that. Hell, I'm pulling off 1.1k dps over two hours on my 75 wizard, and I'm certain another 11% on top of that would get me a whole lot of no-where. But, like I said, I've been MIA; I could be talking without knowing all the details, like if the Devs stated that a 35dps upgrade is approximately where they want paladins to be.

Love,
~Uhaen

[balladish]

I'm definitely with Uhaen on this one. "Burst" is not sustained, so why give us 'here doggie doggie have a bone' -type dps for 2 minutes? 120dps increase for two minutes isn't burst. It's a tiny little increase for two minutes, and not worth buying IMO. Why does it seem to be so hard for people to understand that by 'Burst' we want to be able to dish out a significantly higher amount of damage over the course of a short duration? Make the recast timer longer for all I care.

[Turayalon]

Judgement of the Inquisitor>How bout we ask for a real DPS disc im not sure who came up with that but man thats terrible lol. A DPS disc would be something that does atleast 2-3k dps more not 120 thats more like getting more ranks of flurry but atleast they would be permanant added dps vs burning a disc and seeing barely nothing.

[Hulkling]

Its more like 250ish DPS over the course of 2 mintues (24000/120 = 200, then factor in Crits and what not). Yeah still kinda low, but then again, traditional "Burst" discs don't last but 30 seconds and around 20-30 minute recast.

Maybe could increase proc amount and reduce timer......3k/4k/5k/6k/7k/8k procs with 5 hit limit at 10PPM? That'd last ~ 30 seconds....top rank 40k base dmg, at 1333 DPS...prolly around 1600-1700ish DPS give or take with Crits. Thats 44 base DPS over the course of 15 mintes (the selling point).

[Cellan]

[Hulkling]

The please give specifics of what you want. "MOAR BURST" just doesn't cut it.

[Hulkling]

[Turayalon]

Why dont we just make it easy and every hit crits for the duration or something ?

[Turayalon]

OR if you were going the proc route your gonna want it to be 5-10k procs for it to work out as decent dps.

[Cellan]

I would just go with a fellstrike or mightystrike copyover from the Warriors and have it completely replace Holyforge.

[shiftie]

it is clear by going with procs he is trying to circumvent a boost in slay dps.

Imbued ferocity that rangers get seems pretty nice proc dps for 45 seconds iirc 20 min recast. With boom sticks or pet weapons rangers are getting anywhere from 2.5k-4k extra burst dps from procs.

If rangers are allowed to have this hulk it would seem that your weaker version of proc dps just seems kinda meh. In comparsion 250dps/2min or 4k burst for 45 seconds? which would you choose?

I'm not saying we need IF, but something more like it would be nice.

[ZsaZsa Vavoom]

As far as 96% rez goes. I wouldn't mind that, but I thought I recalled there has been resistance to giving us that in the past. If so, I've wondered if we should go a different route; ask for something like a 90% rez that bring you back with... 25% of your mana? 50%? Something like that. It wouldn't have us encroaching into 96% rez-land, and quite honestly I think that might be viewed as more valuable in a lot of raids. By the time people are buying stupid AA's and glyphs anyway, wouldn't it be better to bring a cleric back with enough mana to do some healing?

[shiftie]

[Hulkling]

[Hulkling]

[Uhaen]

Hulk,

I totally screwed up that math, you're right on being 200dps -- but yeah, this is still pretty lame. I imagine most paladins would want a burst that is really a burst -- something in the realm of doing at minimum double what we're doing now -- and if the recast matches to make it hit an overall 44dps, it'd sound good to me. There's one issue I have with proc bursts, though: they're completely unaffected by other classes' burn AAs and clicks. Managing discs with shaman epic clicks is just pure awesome, and just as a for instance, Fellstrike for paladins would likely go a long way to increasing the stack-ability with it.

Now, if you were to suggest say, having that proc AA cost 10 points of mana per proc, let's say I wouldn't object to grouping with enchanters........

[Zanador]

Why a 96 rez which they probably won't give us and if they do it would be the spell not the aa and instead decrease recast of the aa aa's?

[Hulkling]

[Zanador]

No dps aa's! more defensive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ZsaZsa Vavoom]

[Turayalon]

More DPS burn discs
Better def disc
Small Boost to our Heals
AE hate unresistable
FIXED !

[Zanador]

A def disc isn't an aa that's a discipline and what's wrong with the underfoot one? It's way way way WAY better then the sod one

[Turayalon]

The CAP is too low. Tank Fippy and tell me how long it lasts it aint good enough imo.

[Cellan]

Well, I don't know about Fippy or any UF raid mobs, but until that point I haven't had much of an issue with the new damage cap on it being respectable compared to our old ones for a change. Either way, with the major improvement that was, I really think it's vain to ask for yet another improvement; I'm sure the devs will say that the damage cap was triple but mob DPS wasn't or something like that.

[riou]

[Silverboltt]

Removed

[Abazzagorath]

I sent my suggestions to Elidroth, I mostly limited myself to things I believed we had a good shot at getting and would be easy to add. I'll let other people go in with the off the wall stuff, stuff requiring massive code changes, and stuff we have no shot at getting. But here's what i sent:

AA suggestions that make sense for paladins:

1) Hastened Holyforge Discipline - HF is our only "dps" disc, but it has a base 72 minute reuse (decreased with leveling for some reason to 67.5). If we are not able to get a short duration, high intensity, medium re-use time dps disc, at least shortening the reuse on this one would be nice for a small boost. Benefit of 1) not much real power/balance impact, while 2) something that would be very popular with all levels of paladins. Suggest:

5 Levels, 8/8/8/8/8 cost, 3 minute reduction in re-use timer, 40 aa for bringing its reuse down to 52.5 minutes for a level 85 player, and room to grow for additional levels in future expansions until it gets down to the 30 min or so range

2) Lay Hands (additional ranks) - when it was revamped, was supposed to keep pace with player inflated HP, its now fallen well behind. Keep the same formula it already uses per level, and add 3 more levels at least.

3 Levels, 12/12/12 aa cost

3) Hastened Hand of Piety (additional ranks) - more ranks of this was in SoF beta, and was pulled, but it could use some more timer reduction. Base recast of 36 minutes, brought down to 24 minutes with aa. This kind of ability has always been perfect at the 10-15 min reuse time, so add 2 more ranks to bring the reuse time to 16 minutes.

2 Levels, 12/12 aa cost

4) Flurry (additional ranks) - pretty good target for upgrade, the dps gains from flurry really are miniscule, but its one of those things that players in general go gaga about, so is one of those that makes it seem like they are getting more than they really are, i.e., you get happy players

3 ranks, 9/9/9 aa cost, same effect of first 3 ranks

5) Force of Disruption (additional rank) - Another rank, more aggro. More in line with keeping with aggro inflation, another one that seems worth more than it is to many players, and has pretty much zero impact in game to increase the agro.

1 rank, 12 aa cost, increase hate to 4000 (rk 1 is 2000, and rk 2 is 3000 currently)

6) Blessing of Life, Healing Light (additional ranks) - our "passive" healing (well, healing light isn't passive exactly, but is similar when tanking so put them together) is still really really far behind SK in effectiveness, and we wouldn't mind some additional ranks of these. Blessing for more passive healing and healing light because even a crit with aura up is like 3-4% of a buffed raid geared player at this point, and most of the group heal is wasted 99% of the time anyway.

Blessing of Life
3 ranks, 12/12/12 aa cost, same effect per rank as prior ones

Healing Light
3 ranks, 10/10/10 aa cost, same effect per rank as prior ones

7) Hastened Sanctification Discipline - Same deal as holyforge. 72 min reuse originally, leveling brought it down to 67.5 min, it is rarely used because of its short duration (and the fact you guys have increased the number of effects it doesn't work against over the past 4-5 expansions). Not much impact in balance to make the reuse shorter, so a good candidate for aa filler.

5 ranks, 8/8/8/8/8 cost, 3 min reduction per rank

Blessing of Light, Twinproc (additional ranks) - proc dps in general is in the toilet, and our buffed proc is barely better than our undead proc we had at level 26. Adding more ranks would have miniscule dps impact, and offers some filler fluff to keep more people busy.

Twinproc
3 ranks, 8/8/8 cost, same effect as prior ranks

Blessing of Light
3 ranks, 8/8/8 cost, same effect as prior ranks

9) Viscious Smash (additional ranks) - Again, basically fluff, as the dps is barely even parsable, but its something thats apparent in the max bash hit, so some people like it more than they should. So doesn't costs you much, prime candidate for fluff aa.

5 ranks, 10/10/10/10/10 cost, 25 dmg added to damage bonus per rank

10) Hastened Curing - We have needed this for awhile. Quickened just effects cast time on radiant cure, and is not very valuable. With splash, the value of this aa is massively decreased for us, so removes most of the priest vs hybrid curing concerns that probably prevented us from having it in the first place. Toss us the first 3 ranks that priests get.

3 ranks, 7/7/7 cost, same effect as priests (10% per rank)

[Danthion]

Why ask for a bunch of filler crap AA that aren't going to do anything? If flurry AA increases our dps by tiny amounts, why ask for more of it? Why do we want to spend 50 more AA on ranks of vicious smash? Some of these things are good additions, but most of this "fluff" as you call it is the very reason our class is where it is right now. We just got an expansion of 1100 AAs that was mostly fluff, and look where that got us. The only way our class moves forward from here is to get some real changes. Don't settle for a bunch of garbage AA put out just to keep us happy and quiet. If they implement some of these, then they can say "look we gave you hundreds of more AA to work towards", but none of them are really going to make us substantially better.

[balladish]

[Abazzagorath]

[Hulkling]

[shiftie]

[varutia]

I also find bunch of filler AAs at inflated price not really attractive.

Good AA to my mind is something like "purity of the soul", increase the heal procs from Paladins, 3 rank at 8, 10, 12 at 50, 100, 150 percent increase. Also make the stupid ward of tunare line affected by this as well. This line is based on similar AA from SKs, we also need get a spell based healing proc as well match the SKs and have some meaningful proc based healing.

[balladish]

[Xanderax]

I really am hoping for meat and potatoes instead of plain bread. I have played a paladin for almost 11 years now. If you Sony wants to keep the rest of the few remaining paladins they better do something. We did ok in this last expansion. But its like waxing the car before you have washed it. If I had held my breath waiting for them to fix us I would be dead by now. It should not take us ten to fifteen minutes to kill a mob that isnt undead.

Xanderax