Slay Undead Poll: Dev requested feedback

[Hulkling]

[Turayalon]

I would choose C that being keep Slay the same and make us better defensively a tad more. That is all !

[Sigoniax]

Absolutely not... Slay is the only thing we really have that's fun anymore. I forsee many pallies quitting if that was put into place.

[Occam]

I've got mixed feelings on this. I really like Slay Undead. Even though it's far more powerful in people's imaginations than in reality, and that sometimes hurts us, I still just like it. Maybe as one of the classes who can do a lot but doesn't really shine anywhere, I appreciated that little bit of eye candy all the more. At the same time, it's pathetic how bad our live dps is, and we're at SoE's mercy if they decide not to give us any good undead in an expansion.

Pros:
*Finally some decent live dps
*We don't have the "god-like on undead" thing hanging over our head
*If they don't give us any good undead, Slay Undead is almost useless anyway
*As long as we have Slay, they won't upgrade our live dps, but there's no guarantee they'll ever boost Slay any more (in fact I'm certain they won't)

Cons:
*Lose our eye candy
*SKs will probably hate us more than they already do
*They might mess up the dps boost (as in not boost it enough), but I guarantee they will not fail to make SU useless...it's a risk

I guess I'd need more details or assurances. When they say "close the gap," does that mean make us equal to SKs, or does that mean boost it by x%, partially closing the gap? If it's anything less than equal, I'd want to know how far behind SKs we are meant to be. Not because I demand equality with SK dps, but because I don't want to give up SU for a 5% increase.

[Abazzagorath]

NO NO NO NO NO!

No nerfs to slay.

This is the single most class defining aspect of paladins and has been for nearly a decade.

1) Its fun, the most important thing.

2) Any equitable live dps gain to make up for undead dps nerf (something that would take into account % distribution of undead) would not be enough to make a difference in a raid, and barely make a difference in a group. It would make a huge difference in our ability to solo undead AND to our contributions in a group on undead.

3) ITS A FUN ABILITY

Let me make something clear that I've been posting about for 2+ years now. I am getting sick and tired of abilities that are class specific being nerfed in favor of homogenization, just because the developer staff is getting cut back and those remaining want to be able to decrease the amount of time they have to spend to balance new abilities.

What would be the point in being a paladin versus an sk or an sk versus a paladin if we get homogenized? SKs do a tiny bit more dps and paladins do group heals?

I'm a paladin. I'm not a shadowknight. This is a game changer. This is something that would make me quit, and I know I'm not alone. No threatening, just stating flat out that I'd not enjoy the game with the last fun thing for paladins nerfed. I lobbied hard against the slay nerf prior to Planes of Power, but back then I wouldn't have quit over it. I would now.

NO! Emphatically.

[Cactuszach]

The one cool thing we get that no one else does and they want significant decreases for minor increases. No no no 1-900-MixALot no.

[Cactuszach]

"Change Slay, and then have the freedom to change other aspects of Paladin DPS"

Far from a promise and far from specific. Sounds like an angle to jack around with slay and maybe give us something in return that I can guarentee wont make up for the decrease in slay. That wording from Nodyin is just shady.

[Uhaen]

Sorry, Nodyin; I, we, collectively, appreciate the offer and attention, but we must decline as this is our last *really* fun ability. I still have the ability to pull massive trains and handle them with the greatest of ease, but those days have become weary over time as I've become accustomed to being able to handle them. Nothing else, however, gives me that gleam in my eye, the beautiful cleansing for 25k touching me in ways... well, not really, but I still get a smile across my face when I see a new high slay. Every time, too; it never fails to, when seeing five digits rolled into one swing, keep me elated through the 'This target is immune to the stun portion of this spell' spam. To me, Slay Undead is more than a 75% jump in dps: it's a high score. Who can get the biggest slay? Who can rack up the biggest numbers in the shortest amount of time? These are the small things that keep me occupied during long, boring grinds and stop me from studying and consequently from attaining my Bachelor's, but it's the principle of the matter: aside from that, has anyone beaten a 51189?

Please find something else to juggle, if you would like to see us with an increase in live dps. =) I'm willing to accept a replacement for second or third spires!

[varutia]

I just pulled up my logs and had a look, slay is about 40 to 45 percent boost to my undead dps. The number is pretty consistent with different weapons and gear upgrades. I don't know where they pulled the 75 percent increase from in the first place. Consider the amount of undead in the game, I really don't think it warrents a nerf to slay before increase base dps are gained.

Depend how this is done, for example if we lose 20 percent slay and get 20 percent boost to base, this can be considered. If we lose 20 percent slay and get 10 percent boost to base, then it is a problem. Also how this is done is an issue as well, button smashing type of increase dps is not acceptable.

I am personally not completely closed to the discussion, if done properly it will only make us more flexible. We do need to keep a closed watch on the process, so it doesn't stray from intended changes. The way I see if we reduce the modifier on slay with increase of base dps, the end result should be SLIGHT INCREASE dps againist undead, but LARGE INCREASE dps againist live mobs.

Oh I'd be happy if Slay is left alone and we get tactical mastery line of AA, this should even up the base dps somewhat between us and warrior when tanking. Same melee skills with other class would be nifty as well.

[Nyterose]

Leave SLAY alone. There has to be a better way to improve the parity between SKs live dps and ours. SLAY is tied to the range as it is.

I will use this enginerring phrase. If it isn't broke (and it isn't with all the restrictions on SLAY) do NOT fix it.

I told the knight channel in AD about this poll. Knight CL said leave it be (I am with him on this). The SKs aren't in favor of it unless they get a *weak* version of SLAY which had me laughing. That is an example of what this is going to open the door to.

If we get even near live dps to a SK they will then want something of ours. It is just going to open a can of worms that is just gonna get ugly in my opinion. There has to be another way.

[conanan]

Tell them to leave slay as it is and add more undead to the game in all levels of play

[Abazzagorath]

[Cactuszach]

So we can get SK dps - HT if we pillage slay, but we cant get cone hate?

[Nodden]

I say yes beacause looking at SoD it seems relevant undead content is not something devs want to see in eq anymore. I don't care for going to places like HoS just to exp. I want to do relevant content that drops useful stuff or is tied to progression, and there are no undeads in such content in SoD.
Our live dps needs a big boost. I think it's odd that they can't increase our live dps with more nukes or crits or so that doesn't affect slay but since slay is pretty much useless without undead content then so be it.

[shiftie]

Leave slay Alone! The fact that they are mentioning this is scary. What they want to do is pacify us by giving in to a slight increase in live dps. An increase that we will take because our dps sucks so bad meanwhile to continually balance this they will slowly phase out slay. I still say they give us a nuke in line with our crushes that has a % chance to banish the soul of the mob thus turning it undead. Much like the druid change blood spell. Our live dps increases through our current ability to slay.

At any rate sorry for the wild tangent.

seriously leave slay a lone.

cheers,
shiftie

[Occam]

Cactus brings up a good point...why is this even being considered when the reason Directed FoD got pulled was because it would mean SKs losing a class-defining ability? Isn't Slay Undead considered class-defining for Paladins even to the devs?

Another thing I'd like to bring up to my fellow Paladins is that they can always indirectly nerf Slay by reducing/removing undead. It seems they have already done this in SoD. We're never going to see another Frostcrypt, and I'd be surprised if there were more than 1 or 2 undead raid mobs in any future expansions. Worst case scenario, next expansion has 0 undead...that is like removing SU without ever touching it. It would only be useful for slumming or PLing.

[Peaky]

Say NO to SU nerfage!

Just out of curiosity, how much greater is the number he is getting for SK's? Some of the SK's that parse burns are getting numbers far more than 75% greater than our dps on live mobs. If they are so far ahead of us in live situations, isn't there some middle ground that will bring us up to within 10-20% dps of SK's on live mobs such that we exceed them on undead as should be the case?

[Genadinee]

Absolutly NO.

I also disagree 100000000000000000% with SU gives us a 75% DPS increase, I would like to see how that was parsed if its from the arena with everything set perfect then maybe just maybe it could be true, but in the real world he's talking a load of bull.

Also they could boost Paladin live dps and just restrict the amount of undead content, pretty much how SoD is no worthwhile solo exp for a Paladin on undead content in the expn.

Genadine RF AB

[Lisene]

At least one positive is that we now know the devs recognise publicly our dps is way below where it should be. I just can't see this concept of a fear of Slay that prevents us getting into the ballpark of where we should be on live. Before I was a Pally even, I remember Pallies were supposed to be a dps class or near to a dps class on undead. So in each of our guilds (to keep us comparing with relatively similar tier geared dps), where do we stand in comparison to dps? For me, our dps classes are about 500%+ of mine on live mobs. So even if slay is the disputed 75% increase, that means I'm still less than 40% dps of our dps classes on undead content. Surely that provides room to increase live dps and still not have us blowing into imbalance?

I'm in full agreement that Slay shouldn't be nerfed. Its not that useful anymore, but its fun. It is though a defining ability and should stay.

[Zanador]

No. No. No nonononononononono Kiss my hairy white ass and die in a car fire NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[boukk]

Good god.

Bunch of complainy pants.

Slay undead has to be reduced for the reason that IF you upgrade live dps, You also upgrade undead dps.

I am willing to see what nodyin has to offer, but the dps loss in undead department has to be atleast equal to what we ll gain in live department.

We need an upgrade badly, considering sk can event beat us on undead now.

Or ofc, you can just let it as is, and complain more in future ext when everyone can do 2x our dps, even on undead.

[Hulkling]

[Normy]

The wording is shady. My first instinct is to say absolutely not. But as has been pointed out, the undead population isn't exactly busting at the seams. I don't want to see slay reduced to being useless, which is my big fear here. But there are other ways to keep things more in line.

As far as those talking about the percentage increase to our DPS from slay. Yes, it really is close to 75%. This has been parsed extensively both in perfect conditions (IE test dummies) and in group content. The proof is in quite a few places on this board and on the old paladins of norrath site that was archived somewhere. That percentage will shrink some as your normal DPS increases.

The problem I see with what is suggested, is that my DPS in a group or on a raid barely matters. Sure, its nice on the occasional undead raid target to have a strong showing. In a group, we are rarely doing enough undead content for it to really matter, and in SoD content I usually need to keep my shield up to help out the healer, so my DPS is gimped from the start. So its hard to justify changing things when SoE has a habit of of being really good at taking things away, but not such a strong record of giving something great in return. The ONLY exception I know of for that so far is our AoM line, they actually impressed me with that one. Not a great track record.

So here is what I would have to see actually worked out. If they could tweak the numbers so that my slay damage output total would remain fairly close, but our live DPS numbers increase, then I'd be ok with it. This sounds odd, but in a way it is a nerf to slay like that. Since our live DPS influences our undead DPS, all it would mean is that slay is not as big of a percentage boost to our base DPS. The continuing problem for SoE is that as it stands, increasing our live DPS will further boost our undead DPS, which they don't want. If that is what he means, then maybe I would go for this.

And I would want a long testing period on this, with feedback that is at least read, commented on would be a bonus.

I have to admit, I'm not fond of this at all, but I'm willing to listen.

[Pethdor]

No,that is all

[Brickand Morter]

No thank you. Dont touch slay. It is the only way I can solo anything that gives me exp.
Respectfully,
Brickand Morter

[boukk]

Oh my.... wish some people were able to see further than the tip of their nose.

Discarding everything before anything been even proposed is just plain stupid.

[Lourre]

Don't touch Slay.

Increased regular DPS may be a boon for the harder-core raiders who might need to show more usefullness in a burn fight, but for the more casual gamer and soloing, keeping SU as-is is going to be more beneficial.

Besides, it gives the Holy Knight a full-time quest....seek out and destroy all the undead they can find!

[Tuathadendannan]

what an absude poll he's suggestioning, let me see here....
sk's can pull like monks... we have slays that we cant use in this expansion except in the very lowest zones

sk's have ae aggro... we have single target and have to fight for the rest

sk's have good dps... wont mention how pathtic our is...

so why would they want to take away something we cant even use now and replace it with some miniscule boost to dps on live mobs, what a joke, why even bother us with such a stupid poll or idea.

IMo pallys are fine as we are, our dps is not pretty, and i dont mind fighting for add aggro, it makes it interesting,
if they wanna be just with the balancing and add some live dps then im all for that, but I'm not keen on the idea of losing any slay power even if we cant use it atm.

[boukk]

[Nodden]

Well in all fairness if that is waht Nodyin means then he chose his wording poorly.
If the decrease in slay dps would be equal to the increase in live dps then I don't understand why anyone would vote no.

[ZsaZsa Vavoom]

How about as a compromise they up our live dps, but don't improve Slay any for an expansion?

Oh wait...

In all seriousness, while I'm open to the general idea, there are a few fundamental problems with this proposal, as I'm understanding it.

I'd be very, very skeptical of the claim that slay is a 75% improvement. I find the alternate explanation provided in this thread more believable: perhaps it is a 75% melee improvement, but in the bigger picture it is much less relevant.

The amount of undead content is totally under their control. In the *best* case, it has been uncommon to find undead in an expansion. Given the view of SoD I've gotten so far, the undead factor is negligible. It is hard to imagine that we could unbalance anything based on the placement of undead in the game.

The evolution of slay is also totally under their control, and they clearly have been throttling the impact of slay. Especially given that we're now seeing one release per year, we can safely say that slay will go a year without improving any (based on SoD). Can the same be said of the things that are increasing SK damage on live mobs?

From a totally unscientific point of view, I really can't fathom anyone saying, "Wow, I should really make a paladin based on their improved live dps", or "Our guild needs to recruit hard on paladins, now that their live dps is just feeble instead of non-existent." I don't think anyone is expecting live dps on a par with a monk; we just want it to not be embarrassing.

As a practical compromise, I could understand them saying, "I'd increase your overall dps 20%, but I'm not willing to raise your undead dps 20% further." If they addressed that by increasing our overall dps with corresponding changes to keep our undead dps flat with what it is now, I could totally understand that. I would *still* ask if at all possible that they do so without touching slay, however. As has been mentioned a bunch of times, slay is fun. That is also not mathematical, but is really important. I don't want the game unbalanced in the name of fun, but I don't think it is or needs to be. I don't have their code in front of me, and as a software engineer I wouldn't begin to suggest how easy or hard this would be for them, but I could totally understand a change like:

if(mob is not undead) {
increase melee damage by 20%;
}

So that they only increase our melee on live mobs. That I get. But fearing that they can't increase our live mob dps without *decreasing* our undead dps seems silly at this point. It sounds like they are overestimating the impact of our undead dps, especially considering the dearth of undead in the game and the decay of our undead abilities, and underestimating just how sad our live dps is.

[Atnuob]

i haven't read through all the posts but i'm going with keep SU, i mean having a chance to make dps parses is fun.

[Abazzagorath]

[iron299wind]

Leave slay alone its the defining fun paladin ability.

More undead mobs and more undead bosses would be the way to go.

[boukk]

[Cactuszach]

So they understand we are one of the worst dps classes and their solution is to take something away to make us "better".

What kind of deal did they offer druids for everything they got in SoD? Did mages have to give up "significant" pet power to get twincast? So why are you asking to take something away to give us something you seem to imply we deserve? Who are we kidding though, Im sure slay will just get phased out anyway and we will end up with garbage either way.

We deserved aoe hate and didnt get it, deserved better heals and didnt get it, and we deserve a dps upgrade and are asked to give up something very special for it. We as paladins have been on the short end of the developers lists for quite a while because they are bitter that we can kill outdated undead content in under 2 minutes.

[Abazzagorath]

[Lisene]

[boukk]

[Turayalon]

Now if the offer was reduce slay a tad to improve our dps closer to sks, giving us a tad edge defensively over sks since they have more dps then us and tossing in a cone ae agro then sure. Of course that would make us closer to class balance then far behind basically everyone atm though so who knowz : P