Slay Undead Poll: Dev requested feedback

[Hulkling]

[Abazzagorath]

[conanan]

I still fail to see why increasing Slay Undead power is such a bad thing. We already do less DPS against undead than most other classes and less than all other classes on live . Wouldn't the increase of live damage just put us where we should be against undead and live? Or was the increase you had planned for live so large that it would make Slay Undead completely unbalanced?

I also agree with Abazzgaroth that many solutions have been provided.

[knytul]

ill be a little nicer about it than abazz was, but not much...cuz frankly i agree with him 1000%. I wont slam on the current devs TOO much cuz most of them are new to their current positions, but the routine of "ignore the player base and still dont know the mathematical equations", is still in play pretty heavily, and needs to be remedied b4 Underfoot release

[Ughbash]

As to why not increase the power of slay.

Lets assume paladins get slay to be twice as powerful.
Lets also assume paladins get there lackluster melee dps doubled on live.
Paladins now get 4x the dps on slay.

Devs are trying to stop this from happening.

For example: High level paladins were saying that over time in HoS they were doing 2500 or so SUSTAINED dps on undead.
If memory serves they were doign 1300-1500 or so on live.

Paladins SHOULD get more DPS on live, especially BURST DPS.
They should be able to burst without getting too much aggro.

How MUCH dps is a matter of opinion but because of the way slay is coded any boost to your live DPS gives a much larger boost to your undead DPS. If they find a way of unlinking your slay from your normal dps and set it so paladins do for exampled +1200 dps on undead rather then 2x damage on undead then they can increase your normal dps without worrying about slay dps going through the roof.

[Wyvernwill]

That's the math that the devs are errantly flocking around.
No Paladins are asking for increases to Slay. We are asking for increases to our normal DPS. The "4x factor" only happens if the devs are stupid enough to double both our regular dps and making slay doubled as well. If they did that, every last one of them should be fired. As it is, an increase to our base melee will increase our slay by the same multiplier that Slay is affecting our melee today.

Multiple suggestions have been made that would increase our DPS without increasing the dps of our slay side, and said suggestions would also massively decrease the overall % that slay is of our overall dps. However, Slay would still remain the same % of our melee dps... just not overall. The easiest means to do this is through spell dps. We're already casters, spells for dps force us into a choice of Agro, DPS or Recovery. (This is not the route a lot of Paladins want because it would mean they would have to actively play their class. Don't understand that one personally, but whatever, it seems they want passive dps increases or nothing.)

The only reason Slay would need to be tinkered with is because devs want to give us boosts to our passive melee. Overall, the numbers are simple and easy, especially if you know the formulas.

[Thebobo]

[Hulkling]

I was highly reluctant at first to a revamp (and I'm still leary about it) but if this can happen....



....then I'll be a happy camper.

[Normy]

/agree Hulking

[Remdayen]

I could go with that there Hulking !

[Edivor]

Perfectly said... err graphed, Hulking! I agree completely.

[Warpeace]

Ok getting Live DPS is a great thing for our class. However it should not cost us in our ability to SLAY UNDEAD. There still remains the perception that we just mow through undead mobs and that is not true. The last couple of expansions have undead that have more HP and hit faster and harder than before. I hope regular DPS does not cost us undead DPS.
I believe we need a serious upgrade in live DPS, as depicted, and a slight boost in our undead DPS. If the graph Hulking is showing us is anything close to what our living DPS would be I can live with that. Just don't diminish our undead DPS. Never lose our class identity and role.

In the graph I am not sure if that would mean a loss to our undead slaying ability or just a boost in DPS verses live mobs?

[Ughbash]

[Wyvernwill]

[Peaky]

[WaringMcMarrin]

[Thebobo]

[karkariace]

[karkariace]

[WaringMcMarrin]

[Thebobo]

Oh I forgot to mention I dont inderstand why undead DPS should be an issue now that Frodlin has retired ~

[Warpeace]

Well that clears up the living DPS part and understand that we will still have the same total undead DPS. I still believe we should get a boost in our undead DPS also though. Guess we just have to handle one issue at a time. By the looks of it if that DPS goes in we will get a healthy upgrade to our regular DPS though. Probably get more groups because of that also. I'm just concerned about the undead part, the part that helps to define our class as a Paladin.

Someone mentioned our slays would be less flashy. So a Druid twin cast for two 50K nukes and or a Wizzy dropping a 100k nuke is not something of over kill? Not to mention Finishing blow lands for over 60K. Those make my occasional 20k Slays look small.

[shiftie]

[Hulkling]

[Hulkling]

[Hulkling]

[Warpeace]

Well the way it looks they are giving us about what 20 - 25% more DPS for regular mobs acording to the graph + or -? So that in its self is not a bad thing. I am assuming that our total DPS verses undead would at least be the same, yes or no?? If not any idea how much we would loose?
Guess there is only one way to find out and give it a try. At least we are getting something useable in a DPS upgrade and it is better than absolutely nothing.

[Hulkling]

lol hold on now, the graphs in no way shape or form are meant to give actual percentage increase in Underfoot or with a Slay revamp....I don't know how much of an increase we'll get, and I doubt even the Devs know what the final numbers will be just yet. The 1st graph I posted is merely a visual representation to indicate what *my personal expectations* are with a Slay revamp....I.E. raising base DPS while breaking even on overall undead DP, in relation to our current SoD DPS numbers. The 2nd graph I posted is similar, but its what I'd expect once Underfoot goes live - - and again its not meant to give actual percentages.

[Abazzagorath]

Stop being brain washed by the devs, Hulkling.

No, it is a flat out falsehood that if we were doing 10k undead burn we'd do 8k undead sustained. That is just an assinine comment to develop a strawman position to support your opinion.

If the devs gave us "Holyforge 2.0" that had one line on it: Slay Undead (xx) where XX resulted in a 200-250% increase to our total undead dps, with a 1 minute duration, and a 45 minute reuse, how exactly would our sustained dps go up by massive amounts?

No one is asking for trippling our overall dps (no one should be anyway) such that our "burn" dps is based entirely off our *existing* abilities.

People are asking for a fair increase to our live dps, and then some are prepared to get it in a form that won't touch our undead dps directly (i.e., if we do 70% more dps against undead now than live, and we get a 30% boost to live dps, we now do 54% more dps against undead than live), some are prepared to get it in a form that won't increase over overall undead dps at all (i.e. if we do 70% more dps against undead now than live, and we get a 30% boost to live dps, we now do 30% more dps against undead than live), and some of us are adamant that a relative nerf is entirely unnecessary, and unfair, and if we get a 30% boost to live (melee anyway, non-melee contribution has always varied based off what we get or what goes obsolete) dps we should stay at the same relative % dps increase from undead to live mobs.

And the simple fact of the matter is that if they are worried about PASSIVE dps, they need simply to give us dps abilities that are ACTIVE. And (IMO) the best way to do that us short reuse short duration buff disciplines that give us a bonus to either our melee or our nuke abilities (or both rolled into one). Something that keeps our relative dps difference between live and undead the same, where it has been for years, and gives us a reasonable dps incvrease, but at the cost of it not being afk dps.

Making it a discipline also forces us to pay endurance for it, so no newly rezzed high dps.

The add in a long reuse burst dps ability, and call it a day.

[Hulkling]

Do you really think I'm going to advocate something thats intentially going to screw us over? You have a lot of valid ideas, but rampant paranoia and insulting the the entire dev team isn't going to change Elidroth's mind. I've been trying to convince them Slay doesn't need revamped for a very long time now (I still belive this). If you can convince them otherwise, then please by all means do so. Till that happens, working with them....and yes comprimising....is a better alternative than kicking and screaming like little girls.

[Abazzagorath]

[Normy]

What I have gathered out of this is that the devs do believe we need a passive increase to our melee, and I think that is where this player base and the devs are not on the same page. In terms of a passive increase, their math is accurate. Give us some big general boost to our passive melee, and our slay is a multiple of our current melee DPS, so yes in that sense it would skyrocket.

But that is my issue with it right now, I don't agree that we need a passive DPS boost. I fully support an active DPS boost just like the SK's got (although I do believe we should be behind them by at least some, no I don't have actual numbers of how much "some" is). Give us nuke lines, give us proc lines, ect. Lots of ideas in this thread, but for some reason I think the devs are deadset on the idea of a passive upgrade, in which case then slay does need to change from a multiple effect into something else.

My guess (and only my guess) is that a passive upgrade is much easier to actually implement, control, scale, and upgrade as it goes on. Active DPS increases will require work, loads of testing and tweaking with many many more variables each expansion. From a coding and management of that code perspective, passive is easier and cheaper. Therefore, I think that its just the corporate side of this game coming out to haunt us, because they need an easier and more maintainable solution than the good ones we've suggested.

Its not brainwashing, its accepting the situation we find ourselves in. Some kind of change is coming, so if we can't talk them out of it, we need to do what we can to try to get the best deal out of the new changes.

[Sylvia Sunhair]

[Dole]

I do enough button mashing as it is. On hard group content I tank with a shield, heal, stun, cure, and yes root + knockback stuns to position. My DPS sucks and an increase is DPS through spells will just decrease my tanking durability on stunnable mobs. Increase my DPS in this situation and my DPS will still suck.

On raids I'm rarely asked to do DPS, and with an increase in DPS I would still be asked to be ramp tank, OT, or support the raid in other ways.

So, I'm all for an increase in DPS without more casting. I'd rather be fighting for better tanking and healing abilities or better aggro control than DPS. I think we are wasting too much time on a DPS increase to the point where I'm afraid our bread and butter abilities will be deminished in the next expansion.

Dole

[Normy]

All DPS buttonmash for what they get. Have a zerker turn on auto-attack and walk away, their DPS will suck. We keep talking about the uber SK DPS. Guess what, with just their passive DPS, they are basically the exact same as us. They have identical melee skills, very small amount of better proc lines.

So hope for a passive increase, but then slay has to change. Thats the point, and the problem with how slay is currently applied. And we will still be likely the botton melee DPS in the game, I mean who are we really expecting to surpass? SK's? Not likely. Rangers? Not a chance. Monks? That wouldn't make sense either. Zerkers, rogues? nope.

[knytul]

[Hulkling]

[knytul]

naw, Blessing of Purification gave me a hardon. This rumored ae cure doesnt. Might not even be true, but still a rumor

[conanan]

[conanan]