Slay Undead Poll: Dev requested feedback

[Lisene]

[Uhaen]

[Imrahil]

Bentolf has a weakness against melee 50 % of the time iirc, that's also a reason for your max slay there.

The idea of adding a certain damage bonus via an AA for paladins, which in itself doesn't get multiplied when SU kicks in, sounds like a practical way. Could tier the basic AA to levels (for free) and later on add possibilities to further enhance it by bought AA.

Example (numbers need tweaking of course):
Holy Prowess
Level 1 - Cost 0 - Requirement level 76 - add a damage bonus of 50 to every successful hit.
Level 2 - Cost 0 - Requirement level 77 - add a damage bonus of 100 to every successful hit.
and so on until
Level 10 - Cost 0 - Requirement level 85 - add a damage bonus of 500 to every successful hit.

Could also add another AA:
Valiant Prowess:
Level 1 - Cost 10 - Requirement level 76 - add an additional damage bonus of 10 to every successful hit.
and so on.

This would raise our undead damage also by those values, but they would not get multiplied, thus scale better. And as your yourself put it: SU atm is "somewhat decent DPS", not "good DPS", so making it a bit closer to "good DPS" shouldn't hurt.

Further improvements could then get tweaked around the "costing" AA, similar to AAs like Veteran's Wraith.

[Imrahil]

[Hulkling]

ya know, if the damage bonus thing was put in for knights-only, then it may be possible to scrap knight-only 1 handers if tuned properly. We could then use DW weapons. Course that'd mean higher drop rates for said weapons, putting rune procs on duel wield weapons and such, and probably a whole host of other things I can't think of right now.

just thinkinig outloud really, don't mind me.

[kolor]

I also would like to thank Nodyin for discussing this with us.

It doesn't seem that complex to me to increase melee dps on live mobs without effecting slay dps. For melee swings I would guess that an undead check does not occur at all before the first level of Slay Undead AA is purchased. If that is correct, then instead of first checking for the Slay AA, first check if the mob is undead, then check for the AA, if the mob is not undead then look at what ZsaZsa has suggested.

I would tend to be against using spells or AAs as the primary way to boost dps since that would impact seasoned paladins and NOT those starting out in the class. I have 3150 AAs and have not started purchasing the SoD dps AAs yet (although I will be soon). That being said, I do love getting "big" crits with Crush of Compunction.

But please get some actual comparison data instead of what people "say" their dps is before going any further with this.

[knytul]

exactly, show us some numbers. What dev's test pal's at now, what dev's test sk's at now, and what you guys propose for us with #'s...

[Khauruk]

Nodyin-Dev

I am not a paladin, but some ballpark %ages/#'s would be very useful in dispelling some of the paranoia/suspicion in this thread. Even if they're just communicated to a trusted representative like Hulkling, so he can give out a basic judgement to the community such as "looks like it'll be good for us" or "not so wonderful the way they're looking at it right now." These polls combined w/ past events in EQ aren't necessarily helpful.

I personally like the idea of a powerful, and cheap analog AA line to Veteran's Wrath, available at rather early levels (start at 55 w/ regular crit line). Slay's progression will be preserved and limited, and non-undead melee dps will be boosted. That, or a holy-strike kind of thing - a % chance to receive holy inspiration from the deities which would add XXX damage to a hit (a mechanic similar to the melee dmg bonus spires).

[Coupdvil]

[Khauruk]

[boukk]

considering how sk parse way above us even on undead mob, there shouldnt even be a need to tune slay down.

Sk can parse up to 5k+ on a 3min fight and we can maybe achieve 3k5 at most on a lucky strike on undead, our undead dps isnt even anywhere near where it used to be, and is under what it should be.

Our live dps need a boost regardless of SU.

Our undead dps need to be brought back to where it was (imho).

[Hulkling]

[Cactuszach]

I know posting figures is prolly a no no, since if the change turns out to be less many people will say "hey but you said we would have these numbers!". As we all know also dps figures are based on lots of things including gear, aas, spell effects, debuffs etc. BUT a general "we test sks at 3kdps and pallys at 1k, so we want to make pallys 2kdps" would help out with out trepidation.

[Ghirador]

[Khauruk]

What's the point if it's a scrawny PoS that can only give you a 2 bite meal versus a potential decent meal. I'd be mighty curious about those in teh bush...

[Chania]

Nodyin I have a question..

If OldBaseDps + OldSlayUndead equaled say, 2000 dps on undead mobs (Made up number), would:
NewBaseDps + NewNerfedSlayUndead still equal 2000 dps? If so, then I think alot more Paladins would be for this change. They are worried that it would be less. If they are still doing the same end dps vs undead mobs, and more vs everything else, they'd be nuts not to take it. Thing is, to boost regular DPS Nod has to reign in the multiplicative nature of Slay on said free boost.

[Maglor]

[knytul]

hey nodyin, unlock beta for us and let a team of us come in and work with u and do some parses between sk and pal in various situations using the same gear. Can do parses in group gear and raid gear. No AA vs ALL AA, etc. We can post the results in our Parsed data selection so we ALL can evaluate it. Then, after u got that data, can take that to Test and try boosting Base Melee Damage by %ages until u find a reasonable answer, THEN the paladin community can give a more clearful answer

[Bonzz]

I have not read all these posts so forgive me if I repeat any ideas.

First off, I just LOVE how we were given 2 choices and two choices only.

You see, when you hear about polls in the news, they are slanted with this very same technique.

If they actually offered an option C (such as "Change Slay to an AA Spell") they would not get one of the answers they wanted.

In this case, the answers are: Stay low DPS and we can chill or make us work and we gonna nerf your slay.

Players have come to call this "Sony Logic" or "That's Sony for ya."

I was actually happy with this last expansion because I felt like, "Wow, they actually listend to us this time! New stuff and no nerfing!"

Granted, we players often don't know all the tedious details behind the curtains, but we do know the effects out on the stage.

There are basically three tank classes in the game... WAR, SK and PAL.

DPS from the WAR and SK is relatively significant and the PAL is... well, it just flat out sux.

..........................................

As for the math formula:

"(SomeMeleeBonus) * (BasePaladinMeleeDPS) * (SlayUndeadBonus) = MuchBetterDPS"


There is a one HUGE flaw in this formula. Slay Undead is essentially a proc (process).

YOU CAN NOT COUNT ON IT!

Further it has to be an undead MOB.... and in new content, there aren't that many undead MOB'S or undead camps!!

I am not saying this next part to brag, but to make a point...

Last I looked on EQ Players, I was 9th ranked Paladin on Bertox by way of HP/AC; I have my 2.0; I have over 2K AA; and some other decent weapons as well.

Saying Slay is 75% bonus to base DPS just seems very seriously flawed in reality vs. on paper.

My experience is that slay may go off 2 or 3 times per MOB, IF I am lucky. I often go entire fights and not see a slay at all. More rarely I get more than 3.

Now, a group Killing a MOB is not a LONG endeavor.

So, in the "dead-fast" battles where I get 3 slays off, maybe I did get 75% DPS increase.

If I try that same MOB solo, no way that's true... if I manage to win.

Also, My slays invariably range from 3K to 15K normally.

I have seen some for 18.5K less often.

I have only once seen one for over 20K (and that was with Holy Forge, discs, maxed crit AA's, 2.0 and a Shaman in the group...).

Slay damage clearly reduces, significantly, for higher level MOB's (even 14K slays on them are rare) and this is likely because it is a multiplier (better MOB mitigation means less Slay damage).

.............................................

"So if you're looking to have your base, works on any content, melee DPS to get any sort of viable increase, then we need to deal with the Elephant in the room and take a hard look at Slay undead. It's an AA that, due to a math error, is currently producing far more of a bonus than intended, and it's a multiplier, which means it's something that has to be considered at all times."

??? Math errors can be corrected!

............................................

"During SoD beta we decided we wanted to give you some extra DPS, but we had to do it via spells and not base melee because of just this issue."

Our spells are DPS? /shock

We have undead spells I would hardly call nukes (even Clerics get better and they even get ones that work on live MOB's).

We have direct damage spells that I refer to as mosquito bites (stuns mostly).

We have the reverse DS spells, but it is just a DS and like all DS'es the damage is hardly worth calling a DoT.

Further, the spells are one cast or short lived. This means we have to cast and cast and cast.... and if we do that, it means we are not attacking, not attacking, not attacking....

Is it possible that this so-called DPS increase via spells is off-set by the lack of swinging the sword while we cast repeatedly?

When you give me a DD or DS that can do more damage than one swing of the sword, I'll consider changing how I refer to it as a "mosquito bite" to actually calling it a "DD."

.....................................................


And did I see a comparison to Clerics and Wizards melee DPS?

?????????!!!!!!!!!!!!

They aren't melee classes, ROFL.

But as a counter to that wild scenario, try this.... train a solo PAL, a solo CLR and a solo WIZ with 20 grey con live mob'S.

I bet the PAL is the last one to kill them all!

Why?

PAL lack AoE, pets, real DoT's, real nukes, real snares, etc. (other than slay, which we can't use on purpose).

You need to stick with tossing in those spells and DoT's and Pets (if you are going to consider non-melee).

Do that, and the answer to leave Slay alone AND up DPS is a no-brainer.

......................................................


So some considerations I think Sony is leaving out (some noted in the tirade above):

1) Compare melee to melee... or in this case PAL to WAR to SK, since a PAL is "supposed" to be part WAR and the opposite of an SK.

Leave all other classes out of it.


2) Slay is random. The math is flawed for that reason.


3) Some MOB's resist full damage to Slay, meaning our DPS is not as good even if we proc slay, by your math. (Mitigation is not considered).

Higher level MOB's have higher mitigation and way more HP.

Thus, since melee is reduced by their mitigation, so is Slay. And since they have more HP (abnormally more, in many cases), the percentage of damage a slay can do (vs. what it did with lower level MOB's)... is very likely also a smaller percentage of total HP.

What do I mean? I mean, in the past, if I was killing a lesser MOB my 8K to 10K slay may be 10% to 20% of the MOB's total HP.

In present day, on the tougher MOB, my 18K slay "might" to 1% to 5% damage.


4) Slay is a PAL signature ability. It is the one real "nuke" we get.

No pets, no real DoT's, no real Nukes, undead spells that are not even as good as a clerics, no AoE of any kind, no nukes vs. live MOB's... Slay is our one cool attack ability.


5) Undead MOB's in more recent expansions are rather sparse, other than certain limited areas... and even then, there isn't all that much attraction to camping them.


6) So what if on the rare undead we slay-nuke the crap out of it? LOL!

This "unbalanced" damage is HARD-EARNED!

We had to earn th e AA and buy it!!

We had to earn the armor/equipment!!

We had to quest/obtain that better weapons!!

Isn't that the whole point of gettign better AA's, Armor, Equipment and such? To be more UBAH?!?!?

It seems to me this "unbalanced Slay" issue derives from Sony deciding to put raid-like gear (gear that is arguably better than some of the raid gear just one expansion past) in the group/solo setting.

Not only has it caused significant reduction of any desire for most people to raid, but these high-damage non-raid-obtained weapons are seemingly attracting Sony's attention with the Slay damage, along with the disparity of Paladin DPS becoming more significant (noticeable) on "live" MOB's.

Also, I fear a future nerf to our swords. Up our DPS and suddenly I can see Sony all concerned about our Sword Damage, Delay and Bonus... because our DPS is higher.

Here our swords are reasonably hefty because, I thought, we can't duel wield (WAR get DPS from TWO swords) and our DPS is the lowest between WAR-SK-PAL.... (even if many swords are both SK & PAL).

...................................................

However, knowing Sony, one or the other is going to be done.

So I offer alternatives as follows:


1) Up DPS and make Slay Undead into Disc or AA spell that can be purposely used every 30 seconds.

Click the Hot Button and your next blow will modify into a Slay and let the math go wild (unchanged, leave it as is).

This "limited use" (as opposed to random proc) should work to reduce the so-called overall "DPS increase" with no need to mess with the math on slay (let it slay, let it slay, let it slay).

(NOTE: This the option I would support!)


2) Up DPS but do not "significantly" reduce slay.

Keep in mind, as Sony has historically been known to do, they fail to consider that most players are not maxx AA, not top end equipped and not part of the one or two ubah guilds on a server.

Don't base this on the minority of toons that are the elite.

My opinion, the elite have earned their "significance."

To nerf them means you are also seriously nerfing the lower end of the scale, in my opinion.

[Cactuszach]

A pet would be a decent solution.

SKs got a pet because necros already had one.

Clerics got the hammer "pet" around LoY if im not mistaken to help them as a solo class and to make them "more fun" to play, so giving it to paladins wasnt much of an issue.

In keeping with paladins being 50% war and 50% cleric, a pet would be within reason.

[Lourre]

I've always wanted a Squire as a pet.

That would increase DPS, however you would still have the Sony percieved notion that the pet would add DPS to Undead also.

[shiftie]

An overall increase in dps shouldn't be the issue, if you increase our live dps of course it is going to increase undead dps or it most certainly "should" as we have fallen behind there also. Linking burial rites and last rites was a kick below the belt to begin with. The problem is the multiplier that is SU. Pet dps would be an overall increase without directly effecting slay dps.

[boukk]

Problem with pet, is unless they re like unkillable they re going to be useless on raid, which is where our dps lack the most.

A base dmg boost would be ideal and even if it affect slay, both undead dps and live dps have fallen far behind and need love.

[Dray]

Nodyin,

I think we would all like to see a more definitive plan of action on how our live DPS and undead DPS would be affected and what plan you would have to adjust the two sides of the coin to improve our dps overall. Personally if you keep our undead DPS above Warriors and Shadowknights while bringing our live DPS up to very near Warrior and Shadowknight levels it would be a done deal in my mind given the rarity of undead and the complete randomness of Paladin undead DPS.

I'd really dislike any kind of pet solution I feel pets are not a Paladin flavor. I also can't see us getting DOTs again not a Paladin flavor. I'd love to see our melee improve either through skills such as flurry or perhaps abilities such as the warriors Brutal Onslaught discipline but knights should have the same base melee abilities and giving SK's flurry as well wouldn't really help our DPS cause.

If you can't go in the melee skill improvement direction what about a modified innate (or replacing Righteous Fury line) Hand of Holy Vengeance type proc modified for Paladins. You could change the random proc damage to a constant damage proc (random=bad), change the group heal to self only, and keep the + proc modifier and unresistable nature of the proc.

Please Nodyin what ever you decide to do make sure the solution isn't pets and keep our undead flavor alive as best as possible while boosting our base dps. We need a DPS fix badly.

[Drazeena]

First off, I need to lay claim that I am NOT a pally. As can be seen by my avatar, I play an SK, Shammy, monk/mage trio and therefore don't claim any special knowledge other than that I enjoy reading in class forums where a lot of good information can always be found if one looks hard enough!

After reading through this thread (I liked Bonzz's post above) I enjoyed some of the thoughts that were posted. Now I don't claim to know how to play a Pally, but when I play with one of my best friends online, we have an SK/Pally duo, I really enjoy it and we work well together.
My idea would be to polarize, or separate the knights even further, Paladins should always do more damage against undead than SK's or warriors, as a holy knight there needs to be bonuses versus undead. I don't know how slay works, how often it procs/fires or whatever it is called (can someone reply as to how often it fires on "average" please?), but I like the idea of maybe for the 2 knight classes to be able to flurry, as an AA (I know we can flurry when we spend the tribute for it so the mechanics must already be in place for it).

My idea:
It seems that the Devs want to get rid of Slay in it current form, however maybe:
Pally's could get to keep slay, but perhaps as an AA ability or a disc much like the SK Unholy Aura:
Unholy Aura is a 5 minute(?) timer where all life taps have the chance to crit.
Perhaps SU could be made into a discipline on a similar timer/refresh timer as unholy aura that would then produce those nice large crits against undead that we all like to see

The trade off could be a nice base increase to pally dps on all types of mobs, a bigger "than average" increase against undead... and maybe a flurry AA... hell, while we are at it, ask for Dual wield as well

As I said, Just some idea's I wanted to throw out there as food for thought, but MOST IMPORTANTLY you need to get behind Hulking 100% and know what you want as a class so that he can put it on the table in front of the devs and say "Well Nod, we don't like this, but here is our list of ideas to make this work!"

[Remdayen]

Hmm Bonzz had some intresting ideas there, I could maybe go with a disc that could be used frequently and still have the slays like we have now, not like holyforge, then it would be just a nerf. If there were some assurances and live dps fixed.

[knytul]

nodyin, from the looks of things, long story short: Dev's dont believe crap from us unless we produce large amounts of #'s and parse the hell out of things. 2 way street man, we need some # data from yall b4 we can form a solid opinion too.

[Maasq]

Assuming you're reading this Nod, you'll see the strength of feeling here. The number of replies and the energy and thought that is going in to them show we are not just giving a knee jerk reaction to change. There can't just be 2 options; work with us here. We have given lots of ideas that could be used. Surely in the lore of the game paladins have the strongest story and reason for existing of most classes (outside of the 'standard' human history warriors and thieves)? Our might vs undead is a class defining role - our god's weapon in this mortal realm - so please refine if necessary ,just don't nerf. We have lots of good ideas here that must be workable (or if you explain why they aren't, we can work it out).

I have to echo the comment that pets are not really paladin in nature. Yeah, I'd love the idea of a swarm of angels or something from a DPS point of view, but it doesn't fit with the idea of a paladin in my book. I'm still trying to recover from finding out we had a BOW skill, FFS! How un-noble is that! Give us things that fit with our class to increase our DPS, and my personal plea is not to do this via repeat cast spells (bombs).

Work with us.

Maasq

[Naubi]

[Khauruk]

[Brickand Morter]

Some good ideas in these posts. Good work.

This is how I read what the Devs are trying to accomplish...
1) Boost Paladin Live Mob DPS
2) Don't have the boost tie into the Slay multiplier.

Here is how I read (and agree with) what the primary Paladin concern is....
1) Don't nerf Slay.
(There are more ideas for changes, but in attempting to keep to what was originally asked, gonna stop here.)

If the task is to boost live mob dps for Paladins, but not shoot the Slay value too far (because of the multiplier) I really think adding
additional layers to the Combat Fury (Increase chance to crit) and Veterans Wrath (increase damage of crit when one is scored) is
a very clean way of accomplishing this. ( I checked the definitions of these in game)

We know that Slays are no longer tied to Critical hits, so boosting CF and VW would avoid the multiplier. The Devs. could
figure out just how much of a % boost for each AA layer to scale it according to their intentions.

Yes, the increase in crit rate / damage would still work vs. undead, but not in overpowered (Slay on steroids) way that is the Devs. concern.

I know some of this has been suggested in prev. posts, I am offering support for it.

Brick

[Genadinee]

We shouldn't have to buy additional AA's to be reasonable DPS, think of the poor grouper who plays 90 mins a day 3 or 4 times a week already he has 3,000+ AA to get don't make his hill any steeper.

As an aside we shouldn't have to exp to fix what devs in the past broke, not our fault others couldn't do there job effectivly.

[boukk]

[Nyterose]

[Normy]

[Brickand Morter]

[shiftie]

I've been considering further and I've personally decided that maybe we really need to approach this as though the change is coming with or without our consent (because I don't think it would have been brought up otherwise) At the end of the day we are at the mercy of the devs, and they will make the changes if they feel it will benefit the game. With that in mind we have to ask ourselves - Do we really want to continue down the same paths we already have? I agree with the examples of how to increase base damage while leaving slay alone via veterans wrath. I would however choose if the time comes to have a new skill rather than having extra tiers of aa to grind. Having the one up on skills the SK's already share isn't really a fair mix between the knights. Having the advantage in that department will only cause grief between us and our counterparts.

I personally would like to see something new. If the change is going to come to slay - I would support an on demand slay command much like backstab as already mentioned by someone above. They could tie the reuse timer, and endurance such that we can only use it as often as the 5% or so proc rate that now exists. The only problem I see with that scenario is our lack of ability to slay while defensive, or when block disc is up. That would also cause for a change in holyforge as it stands to increase the % of proc rate. All of this would free up our base dps and allow for us to have a disc on live mobs allowing us a small bit of burst damage as it could block us from using slay during that time. At that point it would be possible to purchase aa's for a chance to proc a double slay or a triple slay, in the same line that already exists for rogues. One of the major reasons I would support this idea is because there is nothing worse than tying a string of slays together on a mob that doesn't really require the effort say when it is at 5% health and you double slay but it would have been more beneficial to have that 20% of health ago. Or when you find yourself in a jam you can't buy a slay. In keeping with the lore we should be able to call upon our power to smite the undead rather than it being a lucky hit.

I am weary of just increasing our crit hit rate or damage done by crits through the aa line as I said above. The reason I have mentioned pet dps multiple times is because while the pet adds dps it also adds another aspect of versatility. Praying to the gods to send an aid to our side to assist in battle isn't all that far fetched for paladin lore. I love my pet proc spear but it would have been bad ass if that sword was in the form of the new banshee graphics, only a lot less ugly. The spirit of some wench we saved or something or having temporary control over the souls we have banished and they must repay us as retribution for their sins. Having a pet allows for the ability to have a completely different aa line. Most importantly it was a solution to the leave slay as it is while increasing our dps problem.

I don't know how they will resolve this dilema, I do however know that I would prefer it by way of a new skill rather than more of the same by way of more violent crits.

I still hold to the ideal that I'd like slay to remain the same but I think that is being short sighted...I have a feeling it is going to see a change regardless - because the gap between us and other classes that swing a sword has inflated too far.

cheers,
shiftie

[Maasq]

2 things.

(1) I'm a teacher IRL. If I want a kid or group of kids to crack, I stay silent long enough. Some of us are cracking in the period of silence. Stay strong in this, we need to be united.

(2) Whoever it was that replied to my earlier post with a cryptic "2 out of 3 aint bad" type of message... What was missing? There's plenty of posts, there's plenty of passion... and if my ability to read pseudo-deep-internet-creep is spot on, the one you think is missing is thought? So there aren't plenty of mathematical, or programming, or logical, or lore, or just plain suggestions in this thread? I suggest you start at post one and read all the words before replying like that again, it's just insulting. Even posts that seem hardline, like Knytul for instance, are making a very good point about using an evidence based model for any progression. It's not negativity for negativity sake, FFS!

[Kether]

I did not like the mechanics of SU from the beginning (SoL) (I had wanted a flat 20% increase, or alternatively a 'slay' with greater frequency, but a lower multiple, of what went Live). Furthermore continued increases in SU (as its mechanics are not capped, say like how HoP is a X hp heal, not X% of our max HP heal) would lead us on a road to the current situation.

Where Nodyin is failing here is by not using any numbers that would illustrate the NET impact of any proposed change.
E.g. (dps numbers are illustrative only)

CurrentBonusFactor = 1.0
CurrentMelee = 800dps
CurrentNetLiveMelee = 800dps
SlayMultiple = 1.75
Current SlayMelee = 1400dps

ProposedBonusFactor = 1.3
CurrentMelee = 800dps
ProposedNetLiveMelee = 1040dps
SlayMultiple = 1.3
ProposedNetSlayMelee = 1352dps

Would most paladins be fairly happy with, for example, gaining 240 live dps and losing 48 undead dps? Probably.

Depending on what those two factors are (proposed overall bonus, and reduced slay multiple) would determine what happens. In fact, it is quite possible that one could do very, very nearly as much undead DPS with revised mechanics as itemization and/or other class related features could be set to cap the undead portion of dps, artificially restricting live dps as a result.

Heck, Paladins could even do MORE NET DPS against undead, but it simply would be less variable than it is now as a large portion of it would be rolled into base melee dps.

Nodyin simply has not said what NET changes he has in mind here.

SKs aren't really relevant here.
GoD should have pointed out the flaw in SK balance (that they could function as a main provider of another group role, puller).
SK capabilities have since grown far beyond any sense of balance. The fact that a rather crappy cone AA caused a huge SK uproar that caused the developers to back down and make that asinine 'AE is an SK class role' statement indicates that any true reckoning of capabilities between classes is never going to occur.
To worry about the impact of paladin changes on SKs is like worrying about increases to the French nuclear programing impacting Russia.

[Drazeena]