Slay Undead Poll: Dev requested feedback

[Opfor]

I seriously wonder about some of you and your outlook on the future.

Reading what Nodyin said, I think it would be fair to assume that sometime in the near future there will be a HEAVY undead exspansion say 85%? As Nodyin said they do not plan new content around abilities, but around a story line. That being said, I can surely see where there would be an outcry if a new expac, that was 85% undead went live with SU in its current form. In essence I see this as a freebie for pallys, you can get a a boost to DPS now, and loose some on SU, OR you can get beat to death with a nerf bat in about 9 months.

Also it might be best to realize that the reason the Devs need reams of data is because the playerbase will lie/exagerate to their own benefit or the benefit of their class. The devs on the other have have a vested interest in keeping things as balanced as possible. We the players are in their world like it or not, we don't make the rules just follow them.

[Vaindolf]

[shiftie]

Lets try this again, No offense to those of you who continue to post arguments based on tanking, aggro etc but...

Nodyin wrote:
Current Paladin base DPS is fairly low.

simply reposting this I may make it a daily habit.

1. This thread is not about AE aggro - so lets cut that out and stop de-railing.
2. This thread is not about the # of times we are called upon to do dps (this is so counterproductive to this conversation its not even funny)
3. This thread is not about our ability to tank in relation to the other classes (we are just fine in this department)
4 This thread IS about our current status of DPS and how it relates to Slay.

If you would like to see an increase in our tanking ability - start another thread and approach it there. A large portion of the paladin community believe paladin tanking to be well balanced. I know I'm about to contradict myself but...

Things like

tauaunt wrote:
leave it alone and increase defense ability. I never worry about dps cept on undead.

If enough people continue to post in this context it is going to tear down efforts to reach a solution as the devs may take it into consideration that we really don't care to see a gain in dps and the scale of balance between sk/pal will tip unfavorably in the wrong direction yet again.

and...then also a large majority of the following makes little to no sense.

Maglor wrote:
Assume you are a paladin. You are taking damage. What do you do? Simple. You stop fighting, target yourself, cast a heal, then turn your attention back onto the mob. Of course, the time where you are targeting yourself and healing is time not dpsing. But, that is what happens when you have the ability to heal

This is poorly thought out and is not a point of argument for dps. This has already been balanced starting at level 73, while there may be some suffering prior to this level you can gain your way to 73 rather quickly and even then the 1.0 sec heals exist. The burst heal has 0.3 seconds of cast time if you are smart make a social or tab heal. How much time could you really lose out on to dps?

tab
spell gem
tab

or a social
/tar (toons name)
/pause 2
/cast spell gem
/cast spell gem
/cast spell gem
If you can nearly heal yourself on the run I don't see much time lost doing dps. Unless you choose to only cast the "touch" line.

Paladins have stuns. True, at higher levels, there are three lines of stuns. ONe of which actually does some damage. But no self-respecting paladin would even think of using that damage dealing stun.

That stun serves its purpose, and it has also been balanced most recently by the addition of crushes. The crush has identical aggro with no knock back and the bonus of a DD.

The paladin stuns are more agro inducing than the shadow kngiht aoe spells. This I know, because I once tried to take agro from a sk who was deliberately trying to keep agro from me. It was a contest between us. We tried it several times, and I won every time.

It is Highly possible that the sk just wasn't a good player and is completely subjective. While some of your argument is valid and with good intent, it does little for our cause by pointing out things that have already been dealt with.

One last thing

Uhaen is at the top of paladins serverwide and he parsed 1029 vs live mobs in pure melee combat- point being he has the best focii, weapons, AA etc. Assume we are talking about the lower tier paladins, while they can enjoy the undead hunting grounds and the fruits of dps gains from SU they cannot achieve gear by soloing live mobs, as the armor drops from undead mobs are few and far between. Mostly only ever used for xp which will help them catch up in aa. Given the group weapon ratio increases made recently they can only hope to achieve OOW to TSS melee dps by virtue of the weapon they hold. We could then probably assume they can push out 700 or so DPS from melee alone.

We should be fighting for a 700 pt base dps increase that scales down to the appropriate level aa. So that our live dps before spells, and other augments such as shaman click becomes 1700. Maintaining that same relative gain to the undead hunting grounds so that his posted 1800 dps becomes 2500 base and going over 3k with additives and spell damage. If slay remained intact you could then see a run of maybe 5k dps going full burn with 7th, warcry, bard, 2nd spire, holyforge, sham epic, so on and so forth - What would be so wrong in that #? Monks can parse 7k, Rangers were parsing over 4k an expansion ago, beastlords doing 5k, Rogues and Zerkers doing 10k yada yada yada. Why would 5k all out DPS be so bad, realistically it would put us in the middle of the pack.

Lets see some numbers Nodyin! Come out of hiding.

shiftie

[Occam]

[Imrahil]

I think it is important to see that even SU itself is not what it used to be (i.e. a very powerful tool making us the masters of killing undeads).

I urge you Nodyin, check the parses, not only against living mobs but also against undead. We need a boost on both of them. I myself haven't been able to parse over 4 K EVER (on anything that lives longer than 10 seconds) and I am using the Tower lance, while wizards, mages, necros, druids (!), monks, rogues, zerkers, rangers beat it constantly.

If the SU messages could be filtered out like the other melee messages, probably this hoax of the "ubor paladin DPS vs. undead" would already have died. It's simply not true, even when those 35 K slays look impressive. Heck look at some of the monk hits or the spell damage from wizards - the later can produce numbers like that more or less at will, we have to rely purely on luck.

[Vaindolf]

Good point and post Imrahil. Totally agree. Think many folks are still under the illusion of some occational big crits that they seen in the passed, make them think we are totally pwning every class on dps when it comes to undeads. Thats simply not true anymore.
He better do some big reaserch before he comes up with a huge nerf on assumptions that these lucky crits makes us some dps machines.
And come on, if you have plans on making an exp with 85% undeads, and cant just because there is that damn class paladins wich are known to be a "great force against undeads", and need to redefine that class to something else before that expansion. Get real.
We parse every mob on every raid and have much data. But the recent expansions havent had much (if any) undeads in the high end zones/raids and thats usually the trend cause of this mythical pally slays. I can only recall my own undead parses with Solt lance, got Discord tower lance now, and those parses wasnt very high, infact in avarage pretty damn low compared to the numbers coming out today. Gonno do some more parses if i can find any good undeads anymore ). I usually box a monk i can compare too, but with only tier 5 grp geared and some older raid wpns.

[Brohg]

Guys, the GM - with access to the code, robust testing tools and in-depth logs of every fight ever - isn't laboring under any false assumptions. He isn't blinded by the sparkly light of crits. He knows, exactly with numbers not by "feeling", how much damage Slay Undead adds.

[frocus]

Using Glacial crystal lance from Crystallos i see self buffed dps ranging from 350-450 on average fights. Undead fights depending on rng have been anywhere from 423dps lower than my highest fights on live mobs to one Amazing duo run at Emoush in which I parsed 1487dps while the rogue I was grouped with for the fight did 1326dps due to work calling and him slacking on the Backstabs and discs. we ended up having hte 3 gobs pop again with emoush at 6% and have yet to try again. Was quite fun teasing him about being outparsed by a pally but not nearly as nice since I was listening to him bitching out work over voice chat.

[Iwishi]

[knytul]

my feelings on this arent toward changing slay or changing base melee dps per say, my main worry, is giving something up, and not getting enough back in return. Take 2 steps back and only take 1 step forward which has happened ALOT to this class over the years. This is why im pushing So Vigorously toward nodyin giving us a proposal WITH NUMBERS. If the data checks out and is balanced or an improvement to us, id be more willing to back it. With history so notoriously able to repeat itself, i could see us getting SU9 nerfed down to the efficiency of SU1, and our dps still doesnt get up high enough to even come close to an sk's, let alone a ranger...or other classes.

[Dole]

[Nyterose]

Couple things I noted in here. Nodyin is a Dev not a GM. Far as I know GMs have nothing to do with changes in EQ.

As to keeping to the two choices. Lets suppose I don't consider you a troll for posting that (altho I *could*)... If you were given same choice over AE Aggro YOUR class defining item, I somehow do not think you would just sit idle by. Just something to think on.

And no I would not trust a Dev to know what the SU actually does. I have been in EQ for 10 years now. It has been my experience they ask for player input. In fact the supposed SU is broken is a myth and has been proven as such. Yet because you see *eye candy* it is assumed we have this very high dps on undead and that is far from the truth. I have been in LP for 3 hours and gotten not one slay. Next time I log in I get a ton of them... see where I am going with this? It is 100% subject to the range. So there is no way it could be overpowered even IF the parses proved my statement incorrect, which they don't.

Keep in mind there has been no new AA for SU since TSS. So that in and of itself means it has stagnated along with far less undead in suceeding expansions. Further there is no way in Hell you will see a 85% undead expansion. That is just... silly.

For me to get good dps on an undead mob, I use the crystal from FC progression tasks, 7th year vet award (which got nerfed hugely about a year ago) and Holyforge on my Blade of Pure Light. I think the highest slay I have gotten is 34k and it isn't like I got that time after time I had a slash connect either.

If ANYONE is holding back the 2h weapons its the Zerkers not our much vaunted SU. There would be a hue and a cry out there if the Zerkers gained more dps than they currently have from the other pure melee classes. Thats another myth that goes around. Its all the evil pallies fault.

I remember when Thunder of Karana came out with Luclin. Within 24 hours it was not just nerfed but pummelled into the ground into complete uselessness. For two years at least after that, continually asking Devs when it would be fixed, they finally came out and said it would never be fixed. So yay we got a new spell line that did.... nothing. Do you see where I am going?

So ... for us as Paladins to trust a Dev we *need* hard numbers. Period. I am not losing my class defining skill to be nerfed into the ground and pummelled for mediocre live dps. Not without hard evidence that will not happen.

One last thing that it seems some forget. Changes this huge cannot just cover the raiders at all spheres, high and low end, it must cover those that are purely casual. It is something that often is forgotten by people that would rather nerf than shall we say... FIX IT.

It is the very least that can be given to us. Two choices makes me somewhat disappointed in Nodyin as I expected more of him than that.

[Iwishi]

Im not really sure what would make me a troll for pointing that out Nyterose. I actually said it to help get the focus back on the topic at hand.

From where I see it you have the classic choice here. The current and known which isnt enough and the the unknown which might be enough and might not. The only thing you KNOW from this is that your non-undead dps will rise sharply at the expense of the eyecandy cleanses.
Will it rise to SK levels?
SHOULD it rise to SK levels?
What other things could complement non-undead dps without providing undead dps? What type of spells, procs, pets or discs?
What level of dps compared to an SK is "balanced" in the GROUP game?
Anything that is a nonscaling dps addition has a far better chance of making it in. Multiplicative effects has almost no chance at all.
Activated dps should have better chance then passive too.

What if Nodyin had said: We can raise your live dps to warrior level but youll heal like a level 60 beastlord.
We can raise your live dps to warrior level but youll tank like a rogue then.

They dont really care about your dps per se, they just care about balance. Silkcaster dps these days aside.

Brainstorm with ONLY dps ideas for a while and leave out the rest that is of no importance to this issue like aggro or tanking or healing or whatever.

I can start:
Deaggro nuke for same dmg (but neg hate) as Crush, not shared timer.
Paladin version of Mage spell Brimstone Body, or Cleric Ward.
An instant cast dot or two.
Skill attack like Frenzy, FK, Volley, Foray, Clawstrikers.

Personal opinion is that paladins should do less dmg then a SK even if SK has no pet out. But thats just me.

[knytul]

yeah, i dont think so bub. it sounds to me that if ti were up to you, wed dps lower than wizzy melee and you can kiss my dwarven beersmellin butt on that one. I will agree that Sk's should do more dps than a paladin, but i wont agree to "only when an sk is at his worst".. type of crap

[Iwishi]

[Hulkling]

[Uhaen]

[Vaindolf]

[shiftie]

I love you long time

[boukk]

[Kneesmasher1]

[Pethdor]

Nodyin or anyone PLS respond to this. You asked for feedback pls respond again to it. The Paladin community is waiting for somekind of response. I am a man of few words and I have spoken mine.
Pethdor/Tribunal server

[Kneesmasher1]

If they boost our live mob DPS to be equal to an SKs, where does that put us in the overall game? What is our role going to be in the game? Where will we excel? Where we will stand apart? No where. It certainly won't be DPS. We'd still be low-end lousy DPS...except now we'd be low-end lousy DPS with no special ability or niche in the game what-so-ever. None. Just a second rate tank with lousy DPS. It won't be as lousy as it is now...but it will still be lousy in the overall grand scheme of things. SU is one of the only...if not THE only thing that sets Paladins apart at all in this game.

I think the big misconception here is the power of SU. The Devs...and many players, seem to think that SU is all that and a bag of chips. But it's not. The mere fact that it relies on the RNG makes sure of that. And, while some of the very top end players may be ripping off slays for 50k with their new Tower Weapons and Intensity, most players don't have those weapons and are bouncing slays in the 20k range. A 20k nuke is piddly squat these days...and that's on ANY mob.

Here's a proposal: Give us an Undead parse mob. Some mob we can't kill but we can do some adequate long (hours) parses, and let us go parse it. And I mean REALLY parse it...not just short term parses on multiple mobs in a place like BMK or Direwind or the Loping Plains Graveyard. To my knoweldge there is no truly and adequate undead parse mob in the game. So give us one somewhere. Put it behind a locked door and restrict access if you need to. Whatever works. Let us do the work for you. Parse the DPS, and report back on what it really is. Compare that to other melee DPS in the game (SKs, Rogues, Warriors, Monks, Zerkers, even Clerics and Bards....which will als need to be parsed adequately) and we'll do the work for you and then you'll have your answer.

And, if you've already done that Nodyin...then by all means lets see the charts, graphs, numbers and information so we have some accurate figures to go by.

But, lets not forget that SU is severely restricted in the game. It only works on Undead. If you're plan is to make an 85% undead expansion in the future...are you concerned about Necro's strength as well? They are considerably stronger against undead mobs.

My prediction: Slay Undead is not near as powerful as you seem to think it is and there's really no need to even touch it. Just leave it alone. Your fear of SU unbalancing the game is unfounded. That's my prediction.

But, of course, if the plan is to nerf us down to nothing on SU regardless of input or what's said here...then by all means, the Paladin community (or what will be left of it after the big Nerf) should be trying to get all we can get right now in exchange for the beating.

[Tura]

Alright, you've been entertaining us for quite some time now but this is just getting ridiculous. First and foremost, just to clear a few things up-

1. Harm Touch is NOT a huge part of our regular DPS.
2. Poor little boner get killed constantly, so don't try factoring him in, either. Also, without the assistance of summoned Mage gear, he's pretty much useless.
3. There's a lot of complaining about not wanting to cast more spells. Guess what? That's how we do it. Nodyin offered you an all around increase to DPS and all you have to do is press auto attack and you'd rather keep one of the most unbalanced abilities in the game and wonder why your live DPS sucks.

Half of you are saying why bother changing SU because it isn't that great, and half of you are saying it's your 'class defining ability' (which it isn't, supplimental healing, buffing, and secondary tanking is) and that you are the 'masters of the undead', which you were never meant to be.

To group A: If SU isn't that great, why would you care about it getting reduced in damage? Developers have even said that with Slay Undead being the way it is all knight weapons will have to suffer to keep Paladins from running amok on everything without a pulse.

To group B: You want to be 'masters of undead'? Awesome! Stop bitching about DPS gaps.

Rogues, Wizards, Beastlords, Berserkers, Rangers, Magicians, Necros...all HORRIBLE classes to try to make an arguement with. Know why? Ummm...they are DPS classes!!! They are SUPPOSED to be out DPSing the tanks and healers. If you want to DPS as a Paladin just go play World of Warcraft. Otherwise, stop being such morons. This thread already shows none of you have the slightest idea how EQ game mechanics even work, so there is no point in arguing over something you don't even know how to fix. I know, for a fact, that you have gotten countless suggestions on the proper way to go about fixing things, some of which include-

1. Push for WoW type beneficial spell targeting codes so you don't have to keep switching targets.
2. Put Slay Undead on a backstab type damage field so there is an actual limit, and put modifiers on weapons.
3. Delete the Paladin and make a Shadowknight since you're trying to take everything we have for yourselves anyway and bitch when you don't get it.
4. Don't make threads like this that you know devs will eventually be reading before their descicion because you are making yourselves look like clueless children. What professional gaming programmer would take the time to try to come to a comprimise with a relentless mob of airheads when they will get their paycheck regardless of whether or not you like his descision?

in short, just stop the damned whining and do some research before you talk to Nodyin.

Turaylon Soulshadow
Shadowknight of Brell Serilis-Cazic Thule
I 1-900-MixALot retired.

[Uhaen]

[frocus]

KneeSmasher I think you are severely under estimating SK dps. Currently living or undead content they flat out own us dps wise. Unless the Sk is worthless and only auto attacking. My gimp little level 60 sk sustains better dps than my pally did at 65 with far better gear. The dps disparity only grows post tss when SK's get some decent dots. If paladin living dps was upped in some way to put us even at 75% of an Equivalent SK's Dps levels I'd be content with Slays returns being pushed back to SU 1 levels. I'd also ask that most of the futher slay additions be refunded and dropped if this was the case. We also can't just ask for auto attack dps. We can get some forms of auto attack dps enhancers I.e. a Soul Abrasion type self proc buff increaser, but most of what we get for dps should come either in the way of a spell or a disc similar to clawstrikers for monks but with much lower damage. The disc ability would give somthing to use endurance on and wouldn't occupy spell slots we need for long recast spells or others we need up almost constantly.

Edit Uhaen just Ignore Turdaylon. And is your sister available for the Million man March again this year? Will her going rate still be a dollar a head?

Edit 2 Kneesmasher we have an undead parse mob. on Normal server type /testcopy load up test server go to arena spawn a test dummy it is undead can get 15 day parses on it without killing it. If you want to test without undead unpurchase slay undead via /resetaa can then do all the parsing you want to compare with and without slay. I may just for shits and giggles later do an SU parse with and without Vet's wrath plus non undead with and without Vet's wrath to compare how much boost we loose thru upping dps via damage mods.

[shiftie]

[boukk]

[Sinsolena]

[Normy]

[Khauruk]

[boukk]

[Normy]

[Duranolin]

[Normy]

[Maasq]

[Tura]

[Normy]

Please stop derailing the thread. You may hate us, consider us whiney, whatever suits you, but this has nothing to do with the topic on hand. I see nothing wrong with debate, but derailment is the main reason I stopped reading at EGN and any real information is lost between pages of curses and arguements that are not on topic.

For the record, those that "do it all the time" are based on a select few drama llamas, not the class as a whole. To this day I've never posted on SK issues because its not my place, many here do not randomly troll EGN for the sake of derailing issues. If you have a problem with a person, take it up with the person. Those that don't even play I'm really confused why you'd even care.

Again, I have no problem with other classes input, but keep it relevant. If you feel my or other numbers are off or we are missing something, it would be helpful to see some parses and provide details if possible.

[Caeelar]

There is no reason to nerf slay undead in order to give us a dps boost. It doesn't even get us out of last place in DPS very often anymore due to lack of updates. I've been ranting on this very subject for awhile, to the point that I finally just gave up. My interest in EQ is down to just raiding anymore mostly due to the fact that paladins are bastard step children of the tanking classes it seems. We have to work twice as hard to get agrro on multiple mobs. We are the lowest dps. And our utility has dwindled down to one thing.. heals. We are a one trick pony.

[boukk]

People just need to stop feeding the troll, as mods dont want to do anything, let them go back to that craphole that is EGN.

Trust nodyin, he will do something if he can, you all need to stop going paranoid at the idea of SU to be touched.

Slay undead dps WONT go down ,period.

The question is how the live dps is going to be upgraded, bet nodyin got some idea, and i doubt it s going to be via spell, more like using base dmg like he suggested.