Slay Undead Poll: Dev requested feedback

[Genadinee]

Take a look at the parses slowly growing in the Parse forum from Normy and Myself, they are being run as a complete base line with zero buffs just to give an idea of where we stand at the start.

[knytul]

Gena, i dont expect an exact pattern in between each slays. Like SLay 3-4 for example i expected a HUGE diifference. Thus why i requested the entire 0-9 slay parsing. With 2 of u doing it, some points are going to be proved once they are complete.

[boukk]

[Ughbash]

AFK parse at zero buffs behind Test85 (45% worn haste item) 1117.7 dps. broken down as 1074.4 from punch and 43.3 Direct damage (procs) over 10737 seconds.

Statistics__________Total___________Punch___________DirDmg_______Time
Damage___________12000475________11536008_______464467________10737


Now a much shorter parse which had me spammin Whirl of Fist 3, Eye Gouge 12, and Flying Kick 662 seconds (11 min 2 seconds).
1414.2 dps broken down as 1016.6 Punch, 291.3 Strike, 64.6 Kick, 41.7 DD.

Statistics_________Total__________Punch____________Strike___________Kick________DirDmg________Time
Damage__________936216_______673035_____________192833__________42744_______27604_________662

[Dole]

Any feedback on when the DPS changes will take place, and what changes they have in mind? Input was asked from us in January, I would think the dev's would have some idea by now.

[knytul]

why do u think weve been getting all this information....to speed this process up of course. ONce all the data has been figured out then it can get sent to Nodyin to draw him back here again. As paladins, we dont have it easy like SOME classes do who are actually liked by the dev's. we have to do mass information gatherings and basically present an entire collection of foolproof data to them to get something done about this.

[Hulkling]

Small update here - Devs are doing a full round of DPS parses in thier own controlled environment for all classes. Its currently in work, so no ETA on when it'll be finished, or when they'll get to paladins. The recent berserker updates were the 1st set of changes resulting from this, so hopefully more goodness will follow for us. I know rangers/druids are also extremely eager to see some results after getting nerfed.

When its all said and done, we'll be able to compare the parses here and the Dev parses, and see if anything is missing or borked. Ya'll are rockin the Casba with these parses, and we'll be ready to rumble when it comes time. /thumbsup

[Deps]

Hello everyone, this is my first post. I am a paladin of The Tribunal, and I read through this topic and it was quite the read.

I am not sure if this has been suggested yet, I have a terrible short term memory, but what if Slay Undead were turned into a Triggered ability like Claw Strikers or the Monk Nukes. It could be flagged as Undead only, and could have a set timer, like 30 seconds, or a minute perhaps, and use endurance. The Initial rank could give you the ability, and the subsequent ranks could increase the potency of the Holy Strike, using your weapons damage as a sort of damage bonus.

This way we could still see the high Slays that we all enjoy, but it would be timed, according to the devs on how often we can use it. It would add some consistency to the ability, and perhaps make it more appealing to developers because they could tweak it easily that way, if it were a disc.

Then They could maybe make our live mob dps more in line with the other tanks, while allowing us to still have an edge on undead. Win Win.

As for increasing live dps, I vote on having an Apprentice Squire pet, gnome character model holding a torch for light source. ^_^ ( I am serious about this)

Thank you all for having a listen, I hope this post isn't buried to badly to be of no use hehe, ( lots of posts in this thread).

[Ughbash]

[Deps]

Maybe make it like the warrior Whorl Blade, (PB AE spin attack). Now we got AE aggro on Undead.

or this is just an after thought.

Keep it a disc as I suggested before, but make it a short duration song buff. Making the paladin proc Slays at a high rate for 12 seconds, with a minute reuse timer. Uses endurance, Takes care of the riposte problem that Ugh mention, and the devs get to "Have their way" with the disc and adjust it as they please.

The prospect of having higher Live dps is very nice, we need to make this situation work for everyone ^_^. With this way, they devs can control it away from its current form, and we can still see our random High slay crits.

[wingz83]

[Deps]

I would say try it out, if it works, then it works, take a mental note on the mobs it works on. Its not that bad, we shouldn't reject good ideas because we are lazy.

[shiftie]

I think we can probably just quit this whole discussion now that Nodyin left eq...

how sad is this whole tread now

shiftie

[shiftie]

[wingz83]

[wingz83]

[Ughbash]

[Deps]

I know it sounds like I'm throwing shots out in the dark, and maybe I am, but I think that the more ideas we bring, the more we have to think about.

How about some skill cap increases? Maybe an AA equivalent To Lightning Strikes. Our SK counterparts get their pets and AA's to improve them, maybe we can get some aa's to improve our melee.

This way we would get a straight up melee boost, to improve all our dps, and combined with the short duration buff idea, the developers can control our undead dps.

[knytul]

[Huurgh]

Well I am sorry if I rezz a dead thread.
I am not even a main pally, but of course I have followed this discussion, as I love my slay undead ability.

So a blue eyed question, can't we get the cleric Vow of Valor spell line as compensation, if slays are decreased?
And I mean the full line with all upgrades not just one spell of it.

Ok before you answer the idea let me armor up and look for a hole to hide in first.

I do NOT want to start a rumor they are decreased btw!

[knytul]

No they are not being decreased, no we dont know what we can get to compensate..any question anybody else can ask atm, expect a no on it atm. ATM, discussions between players and developers have occurred and information is being gathered to state our dps levels on both live and Undead mobs. Once its all gathered from our player side and developer side, the devs will make the proper determination on how to scale both Live and undead dps for us. Once thats done on the melee side, then we can go on with the spellcasting side of dps. Currently between players some ideas are being generated, but nothing set in stone has been liked by all yet.

[Maglor]

Ok. They want parses, we can give them parses. But, this must be done right.

Having done computer programming, I can already tell you exactly the information they are going to be looking for, and how detailed it must be. And if I am asking you to give a lot of information, remember that the Dev's are looking for this information. THE DEVIL IS IN THE DETAILS! So, lets give them the details!

First, we should state what offensive aa's we have. These aa's modify the algorism they use. If we do not give this, they will waste time looking up the aa's we have, that is, IF they even bother. So, STATE IT! Be detailed!

Second, state what offensive WEAPON you use. This can be a 2 handed or a 1 handed. Yes, I know we are all concerned about maximum dps. But learn this from one who has actually programmed computers. EVEN A ONE HANDED WEAPON USES THE SAME ALGORITHM! It will have special modifiers to lower the dps, true, (thouse knight sword aa's used for double and extra attacks that are used only for 2 handed weapons will not apply for single handed weapons) but it is still the same algorism. Though I have not actually programmed it, I can assure you that based on my experience, the combat algorism will be a very complex affair, detailing all sorts of options depending on many hundreds of aa's from each and every toon in the game. A modification of the algorism that benefits us will affect ONE handed weapons just as much as TWO handed weapons. So giving the Def's even one handed information still gives the Dev's information they need and use. And you can bet they are using one handed weapons as well as two handed weapons in their trials.

Third, State the mob and the zone. THIS IS IMPORTANT. Different mobs, even in older zones, are effected and can give the Dev's information as to how the algorism is working. Yes, ideally if you can get the information in the top end zones, which is where everyone is obsessed with anyway, do so. But if you can only get the information in older zones, then by all means, DO SO! But STATE WHAT THE MOB AND THE ZONE IS! That way, the dev's will be able to use the data and compare how well it should be doing to how well it actually is doing.

Fourth, state the average dps for each and every fight. State what spells you used, if any, and if you healed yourself or had someone else (even a merc) healing you. If in a raid, likely you did nothing but dps, but if you did heal, STATE IT. A simple heal spell, even the one that last only hafl a second, can and does stop us from dpsing for that very short time. This will be ESPECIALLY true if you have maxed out dps aa's. Maybe you can make it so you can prevent your dps from lowering on your heals. One thing. DO NOT ASSUME! Simply state what you did,and let the DEV's make the determination.

Finally. If you are in a combat and you can get a parse from a shadowknight or warrior, get it, if you can also get their offensive aa's and the weapon used. The comparision will be especially important (even more so if it is an undead mob).

I will repeat myself. THE DEVIL IS IN THE DETAILS! DPS will full aa's will be different from dps with half aa's. DPS against living will be different than dps against undead. Weapons do alter DPS. So do Spells And different mobs will have different AC's and amount of HP's, resists, regens, etc, information that only DEV's will be able to know, information that we cannot know (though we may be able to make a good guess). Each of these will affect the algorism differently! STATE IT ALL! BE DETAILED, DETAILED, DETAILED! And if you can think if details I missed, ADD IT IN! Add it, even if you did an afk fight (like that guy did with the monk, though for our purposes, tis kinda useless as a monk is not a paladin -- still, would be nice if he gave a comparison, monk vs. paladin). AIf we all do this, and if we don't just focus on raid mobs but try to get a nice broad spectrum of mobs (including solo and group mobs) it can give the dev's enough useful information to make a good judgement!

[shiftie]

Imo read the parsed data section, although you may program computers and stress details - you didn't exactly use the details already given within this board before you posted. There is a wealth of information in the parsed data section... just sayin

[Edivor]

Any update on this?

[knytul]

lil confusion goin on so im gonna say...Not Yet.

[Arvantos]

Been pondering something on this for a bit. What if Slay functioned more like a bane, where a fixed amount of damage could be added to each swing.?

[WaringMcMarrin]

Please keep the thread to a discussion about slay undead or it will get locked.

[Hulkling]

If we're all going to be hypersensitive pussies and continue reporting people, then even the slightest dig against another poster is going to be deleted without notice. Either watch how you address people or grow some hair and take what you put out.

[Uhaen]

[knytul]

/round of applause

Don't applaud. You're one of those he's talking about. No more offtopic posts.

[Elidroth]

Just to avert any panic on this.

Nothing has been done yet from my side, and nothing WILL be done until I am sure we are doing it right. There will be no haphazard or shoot-from-the-hip and hope it works type changes to Slay.

The reality however is unless something IS done about it, your melee dps is going to continue to suffer, due to the scaling issues present currently with Slay. One thing for sure, when changes are made, you're going to be well informed on what's going on. No surprises.. Everyone will have plenty of time to chime in with their feedback.

[Nodden]

Thanks for the update Elidroth.
Have you considered giving us more spell based dps instead of tweaking our melee?

[Coupdvil]

Thank you Elidroth, I appreciate the fact that we're being looked into.

[Normy]

I appreciate the /bump to let us know this is still being looked into. Thank you for keeping us in the loop.

[karkariace]

[Turayalon]

Couldnt agree more hate to bring other classes down but when I see warriors have such an advantage tanking raid named vs knights and also parsing 8-10kdps when burning its kinda sad how far behind we are. With everything going atm inc 7th vet I can parse around 3k dps vs live on raids thats pretty pathetic since thats with the best ratio wep in the game current for paladins.
If paladins and beastlords dont get some love soon I cant see those classes surviving anyone playing endgame EQ atm know these 2 classes need some help badly. Whether it be a dps boost, ae agro or better tanking abilities for paladins I cant see why anyone in todays EQ could continue to play a paladin vs a warrior or SK since these classes blow paladins away in those categories other then maybe sks and paladins being the same level in tanking.

P.S. there are how many undead in SoD ? oh thats right minimal and in the low end zones. How many raid undead ? oh thats right 0 ya SU really needs a nerfing to up our live dps badly oh thats right it was already nerfed when all the undead was removed from CURRENT EQ CONTENT.

[shiftie]

[Turayalon]

Agree with you man I have played a paladin for 8 years now I love the class it just sucks when you see every raid the lack of balance. Our guild has made 18 person contests DKP pu raids now to keep stuff fresh for folks waiting for UF to release. We were doing TJ the otherday fire2 dragon and at the end we wiped at 1 % when all the adds came rolling in it sucks all I could do is SINGLE target agro each one and it was by far not enough to help. The next run we did win but the point is paladins are really running low on their ability to contribute to raids these days. I just hope UF is kind to us and move us up to totem in atleast 1 of the areas we are lacking on raids be it tanking, ae agro or dps.

[Edivor]

I hold out for those reasons too, Shiftie. That, and I made a wizzy alt to box.

[boukk]

Happy and sad.
Happy to have dev communicating, sad to have a class already at the bottom continuing to sink due to dev lack of reality sense.