Paladin role question

[Bruennor]

Hmm, been a while since I last posted here, and been retired from eq. Debating on coming back, but got a rather big question....

I have been keeping up on forums to see what the expansion would look like. I was checking out the sk boards and I noticed their role as raid kiters has been cemented far past the area of contention with both a blast ae hate aa, and a instant cast shadow step aa. I see all sorts of interesting applications for those abilities. Now...

Have paladins had anything cemented this expansion? Do we have a strong raid role or are the druid / shaman upgrades going to come close to over shadowing us? Is there a niche that we will fill that we are the best at?

Appreciate some feedback. Have a good night folks.

[knytul]

our tanking and healing is now awesome, our curing sux...any questions?

[Genadinee]

Our healing is far from Awesome

All heals heal too little by a factor of at least 25% with the exception of LoH which is a pretty neat Ability now with the added HoT.

Paladins on Raids no longer have a meaningful role, curing and healing can and will be done better by Druids and Shaman, Off Tanking is the domain of the SK's due to AE Hate. We are little more than buff bots.

Will add this is from the perspective of a Paladin farming Crystalos, at lower levels I don't know.

[Bruennor]

Fairly disappointing. I havent been retired long enough to have gotten lost in the loop, as I have been through all SoF zones. Just kinda bored with eq, but the thought of having a pocket cleric without needing a second account has my interest piqued. But if I do play again, I want to raid, and if I can't raid well as a paladin, I would sooner just not bother with any other classes. Oh well, will just keep watch. All people have is time, so finding something else to spend some time on for a few months won't be a problem.

Thanks for the info, will check back periodically. Till then, have fun folks, and have a good night.

[Saintsaens]

Meh, I don't see a decreased role for pallies too much, and I'm at about the same level as Gena.

Then again, my guild doesn't have too many warriors on it that show up regularly, so we throw pallies on the tank list. And I really think our healing is not as bad as Gena makes it out to be, although it could be better, it's a TON better than it used to be. Curing, yeah, I wouldn't mind a group cure like druids/shammies, but we do okay. Our aggro problem was mainly fixed (at least on single target aggro) with all the help we got in SoD. Last night, my guild's main necro and I had a bit of an aggro race, and I was able to win it for the first time. He never got aggro off of me, and even admitted we were not "aggro challenged" anymore.

[Normy]

Now, I'm not as uber as Genadinee, so keep that in mind.

I see us as being at our best spot for at least the last 4 years. Not since PoP did we get such a substantial boost.

On the group basis, I can and do group everywhere up to SoF. I've only ventured a little into SoD, bear with me its the newest expansion. I will generally mitigate damage better than our raid warriors since alot of content is now stunnable and we've been given a few new tricks. I can camp in even the new zones with a druid healer and not be afraid of death. Our DPS still sucks, but with the newest spells I can hold agro better than any other tank that I've seen so far, and some of our agro stuffs have become more mana effecient than in the past.

On the solo basis, we are at our best point ever. There is undead content so far in the zones I've ventured into, and the increases in power over these last 5 levels has made some things that were beyond me before actually plausible. Again, against live mobs I can't kill fast enough to make it worth all the mana I spend healing, but against undead I've actually soloed a full level in a very tough grind.

Onto the raid role. We are still very handy, but I guess it depends on what you are raiding and the raid makeup. No doubt, that kiting groups of mobs is totally in the SK's favor, and their newest ability only makes them better at it. Kiting one or 2 big things though, my guild still has the pallies handle it. Being able to cure myself and heal myself in the process of kiting makes life easier. Our cures still need an upgrade, especially our corruption cures. However, we at least finally have some reuse timers reduced on RC.

As for our healing, at the top end its probably underwhelming. Where I am right now (magelo is linked) it actually functions pretty well. Going into Solteris events and the beginnings of SoF events, I can reliably keep my group alive as the only healer if I'm ready for it. I raid lead a bit, and I value having at least a pally to back up a druid or shammy for heals when I can. But I will often make myself the only healer for my group unless we actually have enough to cover everything (rarely).

So, in the end, it all depends. I don't doubt what the more uber folks say, but you don't know what they are running with either. If they already have a great team of SK's that deal with alot of the tanking issues, I'm sure its very possible to feel out in the rain. If you are like me though, I will fill in for a tank more often than our SK's and our pallies have probably saved more raids than any other single class during a bad situation.

[knytul]

our healing isnt as bad as people make it out to be, some just need to realize how to properly utilize it. Aurora when utilized properly can pretty much turn a paladin into another cleric on raids. Take a paladin or 2 and put em on Burst duty and when a war gets low, Burst heal him once and he keeps going while still absorbing heals from clerics.

Paladins were NEVER meant to overtake Cle, Dru or Sham on healing duties. So to compare us 100% to them...is insane. Paladins role is basically Miracle Workers. To put that heal out there where all others cant. To tank that mob when all others are down. If something gets thru the hands of a paladin, expect failure. THAT, is our role. Sk's get ae agro because they are the gloryhounds. "Hey, i tanked 10 mobs while bein healed by 10 clerics..." Paladins are the ones who make it happen when no others can see it. "Hey, i tanked 10 mobs while all other war's and sk's were dead with only 2 clerics"...

That................is our role.

[Bruennor]

I will tell you how it worked for me. I hung with a friend who boxed a few toons, and he mainly focused on his warrior. We were part of a mini raiding group, stuff like the serpant in vergalid, sverag mini's and boss, mistwalker and the spider in the same zone. He did tons of group stuff, and his warrior got to the point where I could not hold a candle to him, even though we had the same gear level, most of the same ac augs, and so on. The warrior owned my dps past disgusting with one of the fabled sol ro weapons and epic 2. He out tanked me on everything, a very good example being garn, I think it was, a minotaur named in mmm. In any situation with adds, he owned me, one whirlwind, then chanter mez's, no mess. I buffed to 4300 ac, he buffed to 4700 on norm.

I know paladins heal well, but what good is it to heal when you are in 10k ae's, and your group heals arent 500 hp stronger than ones from 2 years ago? Our single target heals own, but........now druids and shaman's have a nice big heal, and clerics always owned us. I know sk's love to list all our abilities as pluses on raids, but what they don't seem to understand is of our abilities, most of them don't stack, you have one paladin, you don't need more. Plus, a lot of our abilities are easily done as well or better by other classes.

Now due to this, paladins have a lot of little jobs on raids, but unless a guild is hurting for some classes, paladins are owned by other people. Paladins are the most successful in guilds with low warriors, low clerics, low shamans, low druids, and/or combinations of that. Small problem with those guilds, most of them struggle on stuff the high end guilds can 2 group due to that lack of those classes we can share jobs with. While raiding with my little mini raiding group with my friend, I was constantly finding less reason to play my paladin and more reason to play my wizard, who wasn't even 80 and only had 150 aa, or I played my rogue who didnt even have 100 aa or lv 80. My wizard was ok dps. My rogue was the same dps as my paladin on live content.

Now, that mini raiding group only had 2 geared warriors, and yet on most content, it was more than enough. I played my paladin for around 60 percent of the raids, but at least half of those left me bored. The only reason my friends let me play my paladin, I think, is because it was the class I met them on, and I helped them gear up using my paladin, as I was the best geared when I met them, and while they were losing tanks on shyra, I was the recovery tank, meaning when a warrior fell, I took over, and we won. Nowadays, I just can't compete though.

I was happy to see sk's got a sharp increase in a niche role, meaning they are now the "undisputed" rulers of kiting. Paladins need a similiar boost in power in one form or another. Undead dps is not the route we need. We either need unparalleled single tanking power versus anything but boss mobs, or any other interesting idea's that would make us interchangeable with warriors. Sk's have kiting as a solidified raid job. Warriors have boss tanking, which they are untouched on. Paladins....have nothing. All 3 of us can off tank, but we aren't the best at that and are better off replaced with a warrior. Our only niche is battle rez, which, with the aa's from sof, isn't really a good niche since clerics can do it much easier, as their aa rez casts faster, and is usable between spell casts, so they can play both battle rezzer and heal crew healer.

Sk's, today, can now go on a raid, mash an ae hate aa, and then immediately shadowstep ahead of the mobs and use it again and again as needed to get range to use their ae ability without getting hit, at all. We have no such job, and that is a huge weakness now. I am not sure paladins should be forced to wait another year for an actual ability to do something on a raid that makes people say, lets get paladins to do this, they are the best at it.


EDIT

I just remembered something interesting. During fabled PoP, a ton of the bosses were easily interruptable by our non lv based interrupt aa. I would interrupt fire mini's, including the flash step bird, interrupted some of the fennin ro script bosses, interrupted bertox to I think, can't remember that though, and completely massacred grummus once I got the timing down. That aa was very powerful and useful during fabled. Thats a possible job. The big issue with that as a primary raid skill though, is that nobody else can do that to lv 90+ mobs, so the only way we could become the best at that is if another class or 2 get a weaker ability to do the same job, to keep paladins from becoming required on fights that would use that niche ability.

[knytul]

sounds to me like you are more in favor of playing other classes than paladin....my response: Bye....less paladins out there = less competition to get in the higher guilds and less competition on gear. Too many wannabe paladins out there anyways. If you dont believe me on that one, come in Serverwide.paladins sometime and mention 1 name.........Mafferr. Youll get a very good education REALLY fast.

[Bruennor]

I am confused? I say I play my paladin 60 percent of the time, half of which has me with no real job on a raid, and it sounds like I want to play another class more? I think playing my paladin, even when I don't have a job, shows that I prefer the paladin over all classes. I will never join a guild with my wizard or rogue, its paladin or nothing. Anyway, thats all I am going to say on that note.

Other than that, F you dude. I didn't say I was quitting, I said I was waiting a few more months. But what ever. I swear, there are some plain a hole paladins around nowadays it seems.

Its a shame you apparently have no clue who I am.....

[Normy]

For the record, in my opinion if you know what you are doing you will easily out-tank SK's and even warriors on single target situations. Easily. Our single target snap agro is at the top of the game at lvl 85, no one else can match it yet.

If you feel like you have no real role in a raid, I'm really not sure how to address this. I usually have too many. For one, don't put down the battle rezzer role. Unless you just have clerics sitting around doing nothing, there is no real reason they need to be targeting a corpse and rezzing when mobs are swinging for 13k. And they sure as hell shouldn't be battle buffing unless, of course, you have them in excess. In which case, what is your secret?

Especially with our snap agro and our new deflection disc, we can transition to the next warrior on the tank lineup better than anyone else, and we will live to tell about it. This saves DPS and can save a potential wipe.

For the record, we can still kite. Just because we don't get AE like the SK's does not mean you can't pick up 2-3 mobs and get them off casters/clerics. And for added bonus, throw a burst on a SK you see kiting alot. If he happens to get stunned, the healers will appreciate the mobs coming your way instead of theirs.

Our role is diverse and complicated. We may not be the top at any one specific thing so labled, like tanking the main mob or kiting groups of mobs, but if all you are doing on a raid is hitting autoattack I can imagine that you would get bored. So either you run with a really efficient crowd, or your content really isn't challengeing enough for your gear levels.

And the 10k AE's are handled by paladins. Keep 2 group heals up and aurora of morrow. If you are lucky and have the DoN shoulders, have those ready too, and your HoP in backup if the crap really hits the fan. I usually chain my weaker group heal, clicky shoulders, top group heal, and follow it up by aurora if needs be. If at any point in that process I get some crits, I probably won't need the second group heal, so I'll skip it and use aurora to top off health.

Also, I wouldnt' just define our new LoH as neat. It is the single most powerful heal in the game. Especially with the AA's spent on it to max it out. Since it stacks with anything, it will drastically allow a tank to do more with less heals for 42 seconds than any other heal in the game. Get a few paladins coordinated on it and they can really make the clerics life easy for a few minutes of a fight. Good for high damage burn fights.

/shrug, obviously I'm happy where we are right now, perhaps I'm blind to our limitations though, I dont' claim to be perfect.

[Bruennor]

My opinions regarding single target tanking means being able to tank something a ranger can't. I havent done most high end raids in game, but in raids prior to that, the only time I have seen something that only a tank could tank, not warrior, but tank arch type, is the dog mpg raid trial where the only reason tanks could tank them is they 5k dd'd non tank classes.

And again, I didn't say we had no role, I said we don't have a strong role, which sk's got this expansion. Huge difference.

And the deflection disc, look around, the disc just isn't as effective as it would of been during GoD, for instance. I am not saying its unwelcome, I am just saying that, parsing done by rangers, shows that their weaponshield, versus a lot of mobs, only deflects 50 percent of the hits and mobs strike through the other 50 percent. I don't know if this is a bug, but regarding rangers I think it is. Whether it is for tanks, i don't know.

Now, as for kiting 2 or 3 mobs, again I ask, what makes it a job for us over anybody else? Why can't a ranger or even a cleric do it instead? Even a beast can do it. If people say we can heal ourselves, there is one big issue with that, anything that requires kiting that bad isn't something you can really stop to heal for. Take vishimtar for instance, on him, due to low numbers, I just kited all 4 drakes around myself on my paladin. When I would stop to heal the damage, or group heal my group for additional aggro on the drakes, they would catch up to me and hit me. How do you handle that with a couple of mobs who actually dent a high end raid paladin catching up and hitting you while you try to self heal? Now I am sure somebody will say, but you have a .5 sec cast heal, well, in reality, when kiting it is not .5 seconds. You are required to come to a complete stop to cast the spell, or else it will interrupt, and not all paladins know about ducking.

Yes, our role is diverse, but that diversity is going to start becoming a major hindrance as other classes get more and more abilities. Sk's were hurting, but now they have a "defined" raid role, a role that is better done by them than anybody else in game. Warriors have always had a role that pretty much "only" they can fill in modern, to slightly old content. Druids and shaman's are being given more healing power than they have ever had, and hybrids in general are getting dps increases through instant cast nukes and dots, further solidifying their raid roles as dps.

As for group heals, relying on luck, and a raid item a lot of paladins don't have is not a good role. I don't have vish shoulders even though I killed him around 40 times. I thank god loot guilds for that, though learned my lesson there.

And I don't add loh into the equation, the same as I don't count the sk ht in the equation for them. It is one heal, which is now more powerful for a short time, but you can never rely on it because it is easily blowable still, just less painfully thanks to the hot.

I am happy with paladins in the non raid game, just not as happy in the raid game. I find myself something to do, but the point is, I only get the jobs I do because of lack of other classes. If I was in a guild who had a good supply on a lot of classes, I would be bored a good deal of the time, doing stuff that doesnt challenge me, something that other classes can do just as good or better.

Sk's finally have a defined raid role, warriors, clerics, shaman's, rogues, wizards, and zerkers have always had a defined raid role, I think paladins need one.


EDIT

Ahh, its been so long since I had a solid discussion. Anyway, taking some time off so I don't keep posting after every single other person.

[knytul]

[Normy]

Well, for one, in my opinion SK's have it bad in the raid game. They do have one defining role, and it happens to be one that if 1 SK is good at it, can completely handle it for most events. So then what? They DPS, big whoop. They click their epic so their group can keep themselves up.

And what do they do during just a burn mob? Same thing, just DPS. Meanwhile, we are doing similar things, but at the same time can help group heal and have at least one desireable buff.

Yes, its true that if you have enough of the right classes I suppose our roles would be nothing. But I don't usually have 9 clerics to put in each group in a raid, or 9 druids to back them up.

By the way you break it down, bards have no role, since all of their abilites can be done by other classes. Actually, same with monks. Now paladins, and really zerkers have no really special role either. I mean, DPS can all be done by rogues and wizards really. Kiting by SK's, tanking by warriors, healing by clerics, CC by chanters. Everyone else is just a buff bot. But to this day I've never seen a raid run that way.

The point is that we and several other classes are a hodgepodge of abilities. We all fill in where we can and need to, not just paladins. i've tanked raid mobs, I've patch healed main tanks, I've kited, I've cured, I've DPS'ed, I've clicked things in a specific order, I've done emotes, I've reacted to event occurances. I've seen druids main heal, I've seen warriors kite, I've seen SK's tank, I've seen rangers transition, I've seen bards cure. That is the point.

[Bruennor]

Your right, that is the point....but, SoE is starting to do some odd things nowadays, such as trying to make classes who aren't as useful, more useful. If they keep this up, tell me, what do you think our big use will be, the thing that paladins can do better than the other classes? I think that needs to be thought about now, and actual suggestions made to the dev's regarding this issue, or else paladins may find themselves doing something stupid, like cure patrol or battle rez master. I recommend going to check out other class aa's and spells nowadays, will give you an idea of how classes are evolving. You can go to various class forum's and find out how they use their various abilities in very effective ways to make some of them near indispensable on a lot of raids.

And I am with Genadinee, while our heals are nice, they do not keep up with modern content, from the group game, and I will take her word on the crystallos raid game. Mob dps goes up exponentially every expansion nowadays, while our heals go up a near set percentage, not enough to handle the influx of damage from one raid mob, let alone multiples. I mentioned this in a few posts when SoF first came out, when raid gear doubles in hp, yet heals went up the standard expansion percentage increase. SoE will keep making raids to challenge the gear, but they aren't giving paladins the spell upgrades to keep up with the raid mobs and gear levels. To this day, I still think brells needs more than hp. What good is 1k hp, assuming the new brells even hits that, when raid toons will be wearing a min of 900 hp gear?

My problem, I feel a problem is going to quickly come to paladins, and I prefer getting a jump on it before we have to experience it for 2 years after it happens, due to slow dev work. I don't know if I will start playing again or not, but good news gives me the urge, bad news makes me lose the urge, and I strongly believe raid roles are going to be a big issue soon, and raiding is my cup o tea in eq. If I play again, join a guild, and just get used as filler, or for minor stuff, well, lets say I would be seriously annoyed. I miss the days when I could keep a group up solo on most raids, as long as nobody had mobs on em.

[Normy]

Well, group heals is a valid concern, one that many have voiced. However, I still don't see it as limiting as you paint it. I can and regularly do keep myself and my group alive during raids. I just got off a solteris run (I know, not exactly cutting edge, but not PoTime either to bear with me) where on Solt 4 I tanked one of the 2 guardians, offtanked trash, and kept my group alive without the assistance of another healer. That is a rush of a role, and I did it with our gimp group heals.

I do see what you are saying, but in my book, not many are indespensible in a raid. Tanks are required, generally clerics are required. Then each event has a certain amount of requirements, like CC and such. I don't see many able to say they are indespensible as a class, and if anything I see classes as being cross classed of sorts rather than being more strictly defined. Druids are an example of this, where their healing is being brought up to fill in for clerics if needs be with similar mana efficiency, same with shammies. Yet they keep all their original attributes as well, they just aren't as perfected as the actual cleric class.

Same with the tanking these days. While we don't get the same powerful defensive disc, we do have more tools than ever for tanking. And it may not be immediately noticeable looking at spell lists, but we have a few gems that make us extremely potent patchers/self healers if you can control the conditions.

If you are looking for one very specific defined and required roles for a paladin on a raid, I would probably disagree with you since I like the flexibility I have, that really is our strength. Nevertheless, I'd like to hear your idea of what our role should be if we were able to pick on fixed position and understand why that should be the case. Always willing to hear ideas.

[Bruennor]

My point in a nut shell...

Sk's now have a skill that makes them very valuable. Warriors, well...don't really need to list their value. That is 2 of the 3 tank classes who have a valuable raid role now. What is the paladins? If there are enough warriors, sk's, clerics, and druids there, where does the paladin sit on most raids? A class's value should not depend on the lack of 2 or 3 other classes.

[dindaur]

the paladin role is to remain in that niche floating role, not occupied with anything in particular ready to help when and where needed. spot heal here, pinch tank there, kite as needed, etc. while sk's are always going to be covering the aggro end of the raids, we've also got the heal end to keep ourselves busy with, as well as backing up the sk's. we're backups. backup to the sk kiters, backups to the warrior tanks, and backups to the cleric heals. i think we're probably the king of the backups. we've got the plate to tank, the heals to keep folks alive ( especially the quick heals for the pinch & useful saves ) and the ranged aggro to cover kiting. we need no niche role, because our niche role is watching nearly everyones back. we're the last line of defense. that's good enough for me.

[Bruennor]

So my job is to sit there during learning phases and the rare post learning phase mistake raid runs, and watch for trouble........something sounds terribly wrong with that picture. For one, guilds don't pick up paladins for that role. Another, post learning phase, that would leave some very, very bored paladins during all the routine pharming.

It may all be good enough for you Dindaur, but a class needs a good deal more than that to keep people interested in playing. This wasn't a huge issue when only one tank was extremely attractive, meaning sk's and paladins were more or less interchangeable. This is no longer the case.

[dindaur]

this seems like it comes up alot bruen, but when the top paladins usually speak up, we generally hear that at the top end both knights tank equally, this's with the skewed aggro spells, because of player courtesy for first aggro, not always the case but typical. also its those instances where theyre learning that most mistakes can tend to be made meaning youll find your hands full during just those instances. i dont agree that shadowknights are no longer interchangable with paladins. they have slightly better aggro but this never makes a difference in terms of their tanking ability just in their potential to block a paladin from holding aggro. all the usual roles are there anything tankable kitable any group heal scenarios cure instances when raids are short of classes which does happen. are you raiding and finding there's nothing for you to do? im always occupied.

[knytul]

Dindaur: the paladin role is to remain in that niche floating role, not occupied with anything in particular ready to help when and where needed.

Bruennor: So my job is to sit there during learning phases and the rare post learning phase mistake raid runs, and watch for trouble........something sounds terribly wrong with that picture. For one, guilds don't pick up paladins for that role. Another, post learning phase, that would leave some very, very bored paladins during all the routine pharming.

It may all be good enough for you Dindaur, but a class needs a good deal more than that to keep people interested in playing. This wasn't a huge issue when only one tank was extremely attractive, meaning sk's and paladins were more or less interchangeable. This is no longer the case.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No they dont Brue, Dindaur is right in this one. No you shouldnt just "sit there". Instead during learning phases, mistake raid runs, etc...you should be testing stuff. Do paladins need to heal more on the fight, do they need to dps more, do they need to be ready to offtank? 1 VERY good example of this, is the 3 Steamfactory fights. Mining Behemoth = DPS more, Clankwrench = Heal more, and Spindlecrank = ready to tank (this mob likes to rape w/ that FD).

You said "guilds dont pick up paladins for that role"...any guild that DOESNT pick up paladins for that role, doesnt know JACK about paladins. We have so much Versatility to us its unbelievable. The Best job a raid leader can give to a paladin, is no job at all. Just let the paladin play his class. go from Healing the main tank to tanking himself...or maybe jump off and pick up an add, kill it, then back healin. or tank it from 90% till dead cuz a war cant use his disc's (yes i know war's like this).

[Normy]

At this point, it almost seems like you want to believe paladins have no role.

Most high end guilds run with a number of paladins. Those guys aren't just buff bots, otherwise 1 would be more than enough, so it seems like guild really do pick up paladins for a reason.

Examples of our use again vary by battle, and this IS part of the fun. An example tonight, we were back in Solteris and doing event 6. We had enough healers for everything for a change of pace, but we had to pull 2 clerics for dedicated cure duty. The solution was simple, we had 2 paladins tank and self heal for 2 of the mobs, freeing up the healers to do cure duty.

Another typical role I find myself in, the MA tank, the one that the MA will /assist in order to kill down adds. SK's gather them up, we pallies peel them off and they are killed down. Warriors can't typically do that from a distance and without chasing the SK around. And better yet, I don't have to take a valuable healer away from the warriors.

That dedicated role you are so worried about the SK's having, with enough warriors on a raid that becomes obsolete as well, since warriors AE unresistable taunt is superior to AE agro.

And watching for trouble, again I don't know the crew you run with, but on more recent enounters, farm status or not, events can turn nasty. Sometimes all it takes is a bit of bad luck. That is a role in itself. Unless way overgeared for the encounter, I don't see people just sitting around bored on newer content. I also don't see things as getting to that "post learning phase" where magically you have enough of other classes to fill all the roles of tanking, kiting, healing, curing, battle-rezzing, ect. I mean, if you had all these classes already lined up ready to go and everyone knew exactly how to do each role, then that learning phase is what, 5 minutes? And you must be used to running with 100% raid attendence type folks.

Where I come from, our raid makeup will change from night to night. And that is where versatile classes like ours will shine, and that is why we are still desireable on a raid.

[Bruennor]

To be honest, I think how boring this forum is from the old days proves there is something wrong. Warriors and sk's have a strong showing on their boards, but for us, we have 5 to 7 constant posters, and other than that, just people asking questions.

Paladins do not have a strong role, I seriously doubt any of you can argue that sensibly. We do not have a role we excel at over other classes, and that will come back to bite paladins in the behind very soon, I feel.

[boukk]

Paladin dont have any niche at the moment, we arent the best at anything,period.

We offtank just fine on single target, not better than anyone else.
Dps is subpar, nothing new.
Healings are falling behind (exeption made of LH ).
Kiting , well there s no competition at all anymore, the 2 new sk aa totaly kill us in this section.

Our heal are severly lagging , our 1 sec heal is becoming once again a joke, and is being outhealed by everyone including sk s lifetap, when it used to be a line that healed way more.

I did sent pm to rytan about this problem in the end of the beta, he said he d get into it and they "might" fix it after release.

[Normy]

/throws hands into the air

Ok guys, I don't really know what else to tell you. Fine, consider us useless. Do as you will. I will just have to do my damnedist to etch out my minor crappy part of Tunare before we are all inevitably accidentally deleted by a GM who falls asleep with his hand over the "Delete all useless classes" button.

Seriously, all that has been said over and over is "We have nothing concrete" when all I have done is give example after example after example of what it is we actually do, what we are capable of doing, and what some of the best tell me they do. Open up this "The sky is falling" attitude and suggest what you would like to see and we can go from there.

About the only thing of any substance that has been suggested is that our healing is powerful enough for you. It is true that we can't completely heal a group with a single group heal cast. Our newest group heal is on an 18 second recast, nearly half of what it used to be. We have a powerful new heal in AoM and the upgrade, and our two most recent group heals not on the AoM chain are not linked.

Our burst being less than a lifetap is a joke. I've seen as high has a 17k crit from my burst, and i don't need a mob around to do it and I can use it on others. A more typical crit is still over 10k, above and beyond lifetap.

So, you want some indespensible critical raid role, suggest something. But if it makes absolutely no sense, expect it to be shot down. Here are some things you shouldn't bother with. We should not just instantly be able to tank better than a warrior, because who would be a warrior when you can have the same tank power but with healing too. We should not be able to out-DPS a real DPS class. Same situation. We should not be able to out-heal a cleric. See where I'm going with this?

They aren't going to give us AE agro, and even if they did it would be gimp like what they suggested in beta this time around. Instead they gave us above and beyond single target agro. No one to my knowledge can build it faster than a 85 pally right now minus a SK who burns HT. And believe me, the SK's know about it and are pissed.

So SK's got a cool new toy to help for kiting. I haven't seen the newest SoD raid content and I won't for a while. Maybe, maybe if you are there this might be some form of requirement to be a good kiter. But kiting has been happening for a long time without this little ability. Therefore, I don't see myself sitting on the sidelines anytime soon.

[Lisene]

[boukk]

[frocus]

light is 2k base while the new sk tap is 1700 hp so it requires a double crit to exceed our heal.

Plus tap can only heal the sk whereas our light line can heal another group member and we get a really nice hot to go along side it. our group heal also saw a 44% improvement and had its cast time reduced to 3/5 of teh old time vastly increasing our heal over time capabilities.

[Lisene]

Having just received a very nice, innovative spell set upgrade (great job the people who had input on this) rather than the bog-standard boost to old spells that a lot of other classes are moaning about, I'm seeing action not inaction. From reading lots of old posts, we always seemed to have been divided on Light for speed or Touch for range, I went Touch. With everything else we've gained, why moan about two specific spells and think the end is nigh? Healing could be better in general but it does its job because we're not main healers we're backup/emergency healers. I think we've had more attention this expansion than any other I've seen since rolling a pally. I don't compare what I can do with what other classes can do, I compare what I can do with what I need to be able to do. Hence I don't care if SKs can kite better, nor what their taps do, nor what a Cler or Droo or Shammy heals for. But I love our new deflection disc, the crushes, mark of the crusader, Loh, Aurora etc, etc.., and they do what I need and more. I don't buy the argument we're suffering in groups, and whether or not we suffer in raids will depend on the guild makeup like any other class.

[Normy]

True, I apologize, I was thinking about the wrong heal. My mistake.

However, as pointed out, the base for lifetap and our 1 second heal is still very comparable.

As for being a 50k pally, I noted earlier than on the highest end the heals probably were underwhelming. But with those numbers then, so are cleric heals. I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but this puts a cleric able to heal you for less than 50% of your total HP?

I totally agree that our heals need to scale better to the newest gear out. My suggestion would have been to make the rank 3 spells a magnitude stronger than the group obtainable spells, since that would put the strongest heals properly in the hands of those with 50k. Personally I only break 30k, so I've got a ways to go to match those levels.

As far as burst being dangerous on the high end, yet can be dangerous anywhere. But then what else do you use to heal? You have nothing else in your arsenal that can match the healing power of it combined with the speed of it. Its a choice you make with every spell cast, anything you do that you COULD be doing something else.

Personally, I've never found a good use for our light line. I either use the slower more mana efficient spell, or as of late the burst spells. Our light line has been too weak since it was introduced from my perspective.

And again, I'm not ignoring anything and saying all is fine. I am willing to say that we are not useless, and we have not been tossed to the side. I'm also willing to say that we are not in so bad of shape that everyone is jumping ship. I can list plenty of classes that really have it bad, we aren't one of them.

But I've already given that our heals need work. I've challenged for some real ideas in how we might be improved. Those might spawn into enough of a discussion to take to the devs and have it planned toward the future. I think they are likely to turn a blind eye to the arguement of "we feel broke, fix us."

Healing increase is the only thing actually mentioned so far. So, come up with a method in which the heals could be increased but at the same time are not way overpowering. Having a group geared paladin that is able to heal for 30k is never going to fly, so think around the problem. Personally, I like the idea of some sort of evolving spell line, as we progress in whatever they package it with, the spell becomes more and more powerful. This is an evolution of the current Rk based spells. hell, make it like an epic spell line, and it can grow more powerful through expansions. This would put the powerful heal in the hands of those that the standard 10k crit heals aren't looking so fantastic anymore. If they can survive the fights that upgrade the spell, then they are probably ourfitted in that gear.

Raid role was the start of this conversation. If you feel we dont' have one, come up with something you feel makes sense of what we SHOULD have and bring up specifics for how and why. Again, I find lots of roles in a raid, farming or not. But lets hear from the more uber paladins that don't feel the same way.

[Bruennor]

Never said paladins did not have a raid role. Said we don't have a strong one, meaning there is nothing we can do that somebody else can't do better. This wasn't as bad of an issue when sk's were in the same boat, we were interchangeable. Now Sk's have a very valuable raid role that they, as of this expansion, excel at. So why would any guild pick a few paladins over a few more sk's now when they can do the all important off tank and mass kiting? For now, paladins won't feel the hit too much, but as sk power gets tested and proven over the next 6 months, I think paladins will start having a very hard time joining guilds that aren't mid end or lower.

[Brohg]

"mid end"? That's a terrible phrase.

[Bruennor]

My definition of mid end.....

A guild who is in a slump, who can't keep enough people other than a small core of old timers. This guild is capable of doing mid end content, meaning sub solteris at the moment. They can not compete in higher raids due to lack of clerics, warriors, and other key classes.

Due to the lack of key classes, paladins shine. But......they only shine in the mid end or lower guilds. In guilds who can keep a solid smattering of classes, paladins are just another class. This was ok when sk's and us offered a different flavored off tank, one who heals and cures, and another who tanks a bit better and kites mass mobs. Sk's were not all powerful ae kiters, but they were better than everybody else by a small margin. Now they are hands and feet above everybody else. Paladin heals are getting weaker and weaker the higher up you go, raid wise, due to gear inflation, and raids having to have the mob difficulty and high damage ae's in them to handle the inflation of hp's. So paladins are losing ground, while sk's and many other classes are gaining ground. Other hybrids are getting dps upgrades. Int casters got a huge upgrade to go with their various utility abilities. Druids and Shamans got a big heal increase, among other things.

So, in 6 months time, in a guild that isnt mid end or lower, what does a paladin bring to the table?

[Normy]

I'll let ya know in 6 months if the SK's are doing my duties on a raid. But I stand by my point that everything up through SoF is completely and utterly beatable without the SK's new kite ability. It remains to be seen for the SoD raids. So up through SoF, warriors are an easy replacement for Sk's in their one and only niche role on a raid. Therefore, by this logic, both of our classes are screwed, with only SK's standing a chance if there is something that HAS to be kited and is unable to be kited by any normal means, since that is the only way the SK's would be indespensbile and more valuable than just having another warrior.

[boukk]

[Hulkling]

[Zorbee]

[Hulkling]

[Zorbee]

Hate override on that crush or just normal hate?

[Normy]

What the claim appears to be Hulk, is that the foward shadowstep AA that SK's just got is able to make kiting that much easier for them that even the crappy SK's will do it well. Due to this, since they are the masters of kiting, they can apparently tank just as effectively, and clerics can be more effective healers than us, that we are no longer desireable and will be a dying breed.

But I agree with Hulk that they have been the masters of mass kite for a while now. I don't mind, its what they do. And so far I've not seen all the uber guilds dumping their paladins.

I do see the higher end guilds less likely to pick up paladins en masse. But this makes sense to me. In my opinion, we are a hard class to play well in challenging raid content. This is due to the large number of roles that we may find ourselves in. I know entirely too many paladins that feel our job is to simply beat on the raid mob while a group member of theirs dies to an AE. I know folks that step over the corpse of their top DPS wizzy in order to swing their weapon. I know some who are apparently afraid to move around on the battle field and figure things out.

So when they have a good group of solid Paladins, they aren't likely to recruit more just to have them, because a poorly played paladin is a liability on hard encounters just as much as a well played one is a boon. You see this with several classes, and the more uber guilds have an expectation of having their members on nearly every raid.