Level or AAs?

[Grants]

[knytul]

[Dakanmerangrydorf]

[Abazzagorath]

Or how about you reaug all your stuff with AC and lose about 1000 hp for 500 ac and see how well you tank with it?

I swear, the HP crowd act as if the AC crowd don't know what they are talking about when it comes to return on AC, but we have SEEN what happens to our ability to tank when we gain more AC. We know its working.

I have seen many HP-centric tanks come to the light and now swear by AC. You know how many AC-centric tanks I have seen switch over to HP after trying it?

Zero.

The proof is in the pudding, and the only people qualified to talk about how well or not more AC helps you tank is those that have actually worn it, since the various other traits between any two random individuals differ (how "good" a tank they are in terms of all the little things (positioning, backpeddle, self heal, keeping proper buffs up, using heal aggro, etc)).

Massive HP doesn't even help you on AEs. You still have to heal the same amount. If you are taking 20k+ in AEs before getting a heal, you have bigger problems than your hp/ac balance. Warriors have an argument for needing more HP when they have 4-8 healers working on them and have defensive. Any knight that focuses on HP over AC simply is doing themselves and their guild a disservice because it does not help you more in any situation. We aren't talking about 100,000 hp allowing you to soak up 20 extra AEs or something. We are talking about the tradeoff of like 1000 hp for 500 or more ac.

If you had the option between a 50 ac 100 hp earing or a 0 ac 200 hp earing, which would you use?

Unless you choose the latter, you are kidding yourself when it comes to claiming you are "balanced" or that "hp > ac" or whatever. You just don't want to camp the ac augs or enjoy the big HP number too much to bother.

I'm not saying some tanks don't go too far with AC either. I've seen tanks with AC augs in their weapons, I know an SK who isn't interested in the jonas aug because he'd lose 5 ac (even though he would gain 135 hp and all the stats and saves). Those are just really dumb choices.

Avoidance > shielding > spell shield > combat effects > dot shield > accuracy > AC > HP is what I look at pretty much. Its why I am still wearing the two tacvi quest items. Neck and range items seem to suck except for a couple and the ones I want won't drop. I can't see giving up a bunch of spell shield for 10 more ac and some more hp.

Balance *is* important, but I am so sick of people pretending that having 1000 more hp but 500 less ac makes them a better paladin because of "AEs". Its a joke. Most of those same people have 15-20 spell shield. Get another 10 spell shield and take 1000 less damage from the 10k ae and get some AC augs =P.

[Abazzagorath]

Just to be clear:

I don't care what other people do to their gear. My aggravation comes when I see these same people advising other people to play with poor efficiency. And thinking that less AC I had when my guild broke into anguish is somehow "enough" is a joke. It simply isn't true.

You'd think that the hp-centric tanks would take advice from their healers about what makes them easier to heal.

Let me point out the real "trade off" between me and you dakan (I know I'm sounding crusty, but I honestly am not so bad =P):

Me: 542 more ac from augments
You: 243 more HP from augments

Now, I have 3 more gm/last blood than you, so its really like you have 285 more hp from augs plus I have artisan charm, so I'll also subtract the 67 ac from my TSS charm aug, so moving you to:

You: 595 more Hp from augments

Now I want you to seriously think about that for a moment.

You have traded 595 hp for 542 ac (yes, I'm aware you are getting other mods from those anguish augs, but:

2 of them are 15 avoidance, which you are 100 over the cap so no net gain
1 is attack, you are 100 over the cap so no net gain
1 is the mana regen/hp regen one from demi (no other mods) and you are +5 over mana regen and 30+ over hp regen cap, so no net gain
1 is the shielding anguish aug and you are 3 over the cap so no net gain
1 is a 90 hp aug with no mods
1 is a 90 hp aug with 20 corruption (going from 15 to 35 sv corruption does exactly nothing, farm icecrack for a full set of corruption augs if you are going to go that route)
1 is a 120 hp aug with no mods

So what you have done is trade away 542 ac (Raw ac mind you, so 853 or so displayed ac) for:

595 hp (like 710ish displayed? can't recall exact formula)
5 stun resist (from 28 to 33)
3 spell sheild (from 14 to 17)
6 dot shield (from 15 to 21)
10 combat effects (from 22 to 32)

Now, I'm a big fan of mod2s. But for 850 displayed ac, that's a huge F'in sacrifice. And you have access to better AC raid dropped augs than me. And for someone that is touting the benefits of HP for AEs, you don't seem to have placed much importance on spell shield in gear choices.

Hell, just dumping those 5 augs that have superfluous mods, and replacing them with easily farmed 5x shard of the guardian, you'd lose 345 hp and gain 125 ac. 1 ac for 2.76 hp is pretty &^^$#$ubg go centric.

Basically, the truth almost always ends up the same. people sacrificing huge amounts of AC for small hp gains and nominal (and sometimes superfluous) mod2 gains while touting the beauty of high hp on raids while sporting low spell shield. This is a general complaint now, because I constantly see the same thing.

If you want to balance and put less emphasis on hp? Fine, I can't fault anyone for that. But using a pure hp aug, using an anguish aug with a mod you are maxed at, etc, in favor of easily obtained 25+ ac augs is not balanced, its bloody stupid. No raid tank should not have:

5 shard of the guardians
1 blessed shard
1 illslan enforcer medal
1 crest of the scarlet legion
1 frosted forged ingot thing

No tank should be without those, period. All are easily obtained and common, most of them can be duoed.

[Wyvernwill]

It's funny really Abazz. More often than not, I see HP Centric / Biased tanks being the most agressive that "Their way is the only/right way". At the Demi Level, I am able to max out over 4200ac, and still break 20.2k buffed. And even still, as an AC biased tank, I still have within 1k-1500hps of the top Knights that are using Anguish/Demi augments. My current set up allots me over cap Avoidance, Shielding and 30% Spell Shielding.

The difference between me and knights 600-1k AC behind me has been extremely apparent, especially to healers on Redfang as we have four Paladins offtanking them simultaneously. I've seen the differences in action, and sure, occasionally I'll take a hardish spike, but even those aren't close enough to killing me.

The way I see it, Hit Point bias is the lazy man's approach to gearing anyway. AC augs force a person to do work above and beyond logging in for raids and bidding on augs, which is a challenge for a good deal of people. But then again, another Paladin recently stated to me that any AC over 3300 is a waste due to diminishing returns. lol even at 2.5hp to 1ac, I had him beat. *ponder* How does that work?

[Abazzagorath]

[Kianor]

[WaringMcMarrin]

[Abazzagorath]

[Wyvernwill]

[runeshaman]

[Dakanmerangrydorf]

[Wyvernwill]

[WaringMcMarrin]

[Dakanmerangrydorf]

[WaringMcMarrin]

[Grants]

[WaringMcMarrin]

[Wyvernwill]

[Fraggel Roxx]

[Kakimor]

[Dakanmerangrydorf]

I was wrong...I traded out 900+hp in exchange for 500ac. Ive been farming ac augs on and off for the past couple of weeks and it was worth it. I can tell a huge difference in my tanking abilities.

[Galelor]

[Yondarea]

[Galelor]

[Yondarea]