Slay Undead Poll: Dev requested feedback

[Normy]

Logs are easily created using /testcopy and going onto the test server. That is the purest test you can get since you can simply attack for days if you so desire.

[boukk]

[Ughbash]

The problem with 10 min sustained is it is not a realistic time frame. As a monk I have 4 discs 2 are at about 22 min 1 that is 30 min and one that is 15 min. In 10 min I can burn all 4, but the next 10 min I have one of the weaker ones, and some won't come back until 20 min after the "sustained" is done.

Burn DPS is important in one situation, raiding.

For grouping or soloing your sustained over 4 hours or so is what matters NOT 10 min which cannot be repeated the next 10 min. 10 min sustained is not a sustained it is a slow burn.

Paladins need help in burn absolutely.

You do not need nearly as much help in Sustained, and are already matching (or close to) what DPS classes do in sustained.

As a monk in a group situation I almost never use my offensive discs, I can't I already burn through endurance pulling and regular fighting (Calanins or Whorl) faster than any of the casters in group do. I simply do not have the endurance available to use on discs. If I spend 4 hours fighting in Kurns, Tossriak, Warrens, Kaesora I have to take med breaks when the group is 90 mana (part of that is they can med while I run out to pull). I simply do not have the luxury of burning offensive discs in a group. It is not being lazy it is just being extremely limited end wise. I cannot speak for how other melee classes are but monks already use too much end.

So give paladins a disc that bursts their burn dps heck double it for all I care, give them speed focus and crystal palm that monks have, but your sustained dps on undead does not need an increase.

[Jazya]

[Normy]

I believe the end all point is that rogues are convincing the devs that their sustained DPS regardless to any balancing issues is less than 2.5k. I personally don't care what a rogues DPS is, except that the comparison was then drawn saying "well, if paladins can sustain that kind of damage on undead, then its obviously unbalanced because paladins are not DPS and rogues are."

Our general point is that a top-end rogue is much more capable than 2.5k sustained DPS in so far as they are actually doing more than just /autoattack.

If I ever really say myself out DPS'ing real DPS classes in any situation that mattered, I would agree that our DPS is out of line for what we should be doing. However I've not seen any credible source that tells me what a rogues actual DPS is, just a bunch of cherry-picked single fights. Much like what is happening to inflate what paladin DPS really is. People will point to a fight and scream OMG 3.5k DPS from a paladin, /nerf /nerf /nerf and forget to check the parse and realize it was a 1 min fight, the paladin popped everything under the sun, chain-nuked undead nukes, hit second spire, 7th year vet AA, and has top end gear. Meanwhile they still parsed 500 DPS under a similar geared SK.

The real debate still remains here, is our undead DPS out of balance so much that it should require a catastrophic nerf just so our live undead can crawl out from being the worst melee DPS outside of silk wearing classes. In my guild, my uber undead DPS is still beaten by warriors, SK's that are good at what they do, and all real DPS classes, so I have trouble understanding why this ability needs a nerf just so we can be brought out from the crap live DPS we have now. Many ideas are in this thread as to how we could adjust our current situation without needing to nerf slay, and without making slay grow to massive proportions like the devs fear.

[boukk]

[boukk]

[Ughbash]

[vawen]

[karkariace]

[Thebobo]

Wow just saw this thread, been on the road a lot. Is there a link or any suggestion of this is being discussed here on the Sony paladin forums? Maybe I am blind but I saw none.


And to the point NO! No nerf to slay.

I don't see why we have to make a trade off in our class defining ability with increases in DPS with warriors and Shadow knights these days not to mention the the lack of undead lately. (probably due to the frodlin “to much undead” campaign back during Frostcrypt days)

As stated in the Sony forums Shadow Knights in my alliance often make the top 10 dps on raid mobs. Since we are the defensive hybrid I would ask has our defensive ability (guess that means heals?) kept up in scale in relationship to our offensive hybrid brethren. To me it does not.

[Ughbash]

OK, Going to ask this question.

You say you want more sustatined dps.

You say that yoru UNDEAD SUSTAINED DPS is 2.6k

I am hearing between 1k and 1.3k and 1.5k for your live dps.

So if they gave you 2.6k DPS SUSTAINED ON UNDEAD (basically no change) but Raised your Live DPS SUSTAINED to 1800, would you be happy or would you say "Woah, they nerfed Slay".

[knytul]

id honestly give a golfclap and say wow...u gave us 2-400 more dps.....were still the low man on the totem pole by far.

[Cellan]

[Jazya]

[Ughbash]

Well then all I can say is good luck, but don't get your hopes up.

Now I agree that 2300 for a Discord tower rogue sounds low. But just so you know what a monk parses.

All day in Warrens, parsesd about 2600 DPS that is using whorl but only once per mob did not have hte nedurance to use it twice per mobs though mobs were doieign in about a min.

Last night parsed myself on Tower trash. the trash between mindblight and trophy room have about 3 mil hp. I was at 2500 dps (which suprised me) using calanin adn Stuning kick whenever they popped.

This is a monk with Prismatic Fistwraps (crystallos) and Flesh Scourge (Korafax) raid weapons, Max DPS AA, Max Accuracey, Cleave 8, Fero 7 (which unless they changed it is the same as fero . I had Champions and a shaman in group for lynx. I did not have a berserker or a bard.

So basically you currently outdps me SUSTAINED on undead and you want more.

I asked how you woudl feel about what was depending on what numbers you belive between an 80 percent increase in sustained (if you are at 1k as many claim) or 20 Percent increase in sustained (if you are at 1.6k) and you said no you want more.

IMHO and this will be my last post you are asking for too much, expect to be disappointed. Now I STILL think you should get a boost to burst, as I said you can take my main two offensvie discs and I won't care in fact I will say gratz.

But you are seriously overestimating what "DPS" classes do in a group setting. You are not going to get wizard or even mage sustained dps (which in group setting is incredible).

You said before that you did't want sustained DPS greater then the DPS classes, well on undead you have it already and now you want even more on undead as well as on live. YOu are asking for more then any sane person would give (which does not mean that EQ developers won't give it because they are not sane).

In TSS you were the top class, we had paladins come out top DPS on raid fights in FC and were often in the top 5. You probalby will not see those days again. Welcome to being mortal.

[Normy]

Why does everyone feel they need to use a parse with tons of variables like fighting in a group, when we have the tools to have a perfect parse and control every variable? And I am aware that Monks are no longer top DPS out of the DPS classes. I don't entirely agree with it, since they got told the same thing that paladins did. You have x ability, so you get crap for y ability. In the case of monks, somehow their ability to FD and decent defensive capability is supposed to make up for their mediocore (compared to the DPS kings) DPS.

Use the test server, get a test dummy, have it refill your endurance permanetly, go all out and see what you actually could parse without variables like mob movement, agro control, front vs. back, debuffs cast by group mates, group mates temporary effects, ect. I know, you can't always do all that in actual group circumstances, but it still gives a cleaner parse for what is possible than the random parses from groups.

If all I ever trusted was what I actually got in groups, then my DPS is around 400-550 tanking, and even when I'm not its like 750 going all DPS. Its because as a knight, I have other things to do as well as DPS, and variables come into play lots.

In a raid, focusing only on DPS, I can break the 1k mark, but all these numbers suck because there are too many variables to even count. Its not a realistic picture of what my DPS can be, and that is what the devs are basing their decision on. And my sustained DPS on undead (2 hours+) is less than 2k, using nukes and having a good set of buffs I could normally rely on having.

[frocus]

Make sure if your a pally taking Normy's suggestion to /resetaa before parsing on hte dummy as he is flagged undead and will inflate parse numbers. Also Normy the parse Vaz posted on rogue dps was on test dummy from behind with backstab being executed rather than what many here are claiming about it being an autoattack rogue deliberately underparsing for sustained.

Ugh I believe the rogue in question is not in tower gear (thinking MMM dagger since there is no better rogue piercer in Cryss) that was doing the 2.5k sustained. Tower weaponried rogues I've asked have stated numbers in the 3.2-3.5k sustained rate.(Not sure if these rogues are including any discs in the parse such as bleed line with is one of the few can use every mob discs they get or other burst discs spaced(which i doubt given the low numbers)).


Btw My proposal for fixing Paladin Dps. Decrease fire rate of slay so it only provides a 55% increase to base dps but eye candy is preserved. Do this by refunding 2-3 ranks of Slay. Increase pally Melee base dps by 20% to compensate for the slay reduction. Add in AA line Holy Smite modifies self buff procs 12 ranks(same as SK ranks and same mod to damage) 50, 100, 200, 217, 234, 251, 268, 285, 302, 319, 336, 353% mod at each rank. Give paladins Lance Nuke 10% increase in mana/damage over SK lines with same 18 second cycle.(increased damage to compensate somewhat for SK dot dps while still leaving us behind some in dps). These changes would help immensly and by modding the slay rate instead of damage mod we increase our eyecandy raw number while maintaining its ratio to melee max hit while decreasing its frequency some. Or could decrease the damage and combined the melee increase retain the eyecandy numbers and rate just have it be smaller porportional to melee max hit.

[Ughbash]

[Normy]

I know its not a perfect situation, but its more honest than cherry-picked DPS parses is all I'm getting at. Depending on what I want to claim, I can show a fair amount of parses that have me at extreme DPS levels, and I can show a large amount that have me at crap DPS. Neither is really the case (well, ok, I think my DPS sucks, but thats subjective).

And yes, everyone has real endurance limits. All casters have mana limits too, but as far as i can tell the devs don't put a stipulation on it saying "oh, well, they have this kind of DPS, but we need to consider the average mana or endurance pool."

In my eyes, the devs are ignoring real grouping situations already by making the claim that paladins do sustained DPS against undead. In group environments I can go plenty of mobs without seeing a single slay, and then I can slay for 20k on the mob as its fleeing at 2% health, and sometimes the RNG just hates me. To even make the claim that paladins actually have sustained (as in reliable) undead DPS is total BS. Quite typically my undead DPS is exactly the same as my live DPS unless I'm soloing only undead. For lots of paladins, that is not our typical existance in EQ, yet it is what is being used as fodder to build a nerf case against another of our abilities.

[Vaindolf]

I just gotto LOL

Tonight we went to CoA for an aug run with a wiz and mage cler war mnk chanter. After a few mins of trash clears 2 aug nameds popped.

First one i pulled with the monk died in 8 second by that wiz doing about 35k dps. And hes not even SoD raid geared but barelly SoF geared.
It so sick we others didnt even had time to get a disc/spell thru before the named was downed, yet they still think we are overpowered at undeads. WTF, are you guys for real????????
I guess wizzys whines so fking much, graffe going down, omg wizzy class are domed etc. Lets make them overpowered, wizzy outdps mages 4 times by today both short burst and abit longer fights with their harvest shit. Amazing how they got no fking clue about game balance. Im amazed, or should i say shocked. If a dev even read this board, take a fking look at the high end wiz dps today, its S.I.C.K.
They can solo any named by today just because the named wont get a sec even to say its aggro message before its end up dead.
Yet you said there was going to be a close up among classes about the dps possiblities, guess what, the differences are even greater today. (man im pissed)
As a guild we should kick out our 3 mages for 3 wizzys just cause they can do 3-4 times the dps no matter if its 60sec fights or 300 sec fights.

[Axeion]

[Nodden]

So sks burst at 6k dps(ideal conditions). Paladins can't burst, we're at a constant 1.5k dps. (Highend numbers)

Really, what we need are a set of nukes that puts our burst at 5kish dps(ideal conditions) and are balanced manacostwise around how long we're supposed to be able to keep it up.
Stuff like procs or more crits that just increases our sustained do not appeal at all to me(nukes will increase both sustained and burst). What we lack is the ability to burst.

As for the undead crap, tag the nukes so they don't land on undead if deemed necessary, don't care.

[Jazya]

[boukk]

[Thebobo]

[Jazya]

[shiftie]

holyforge is like 1% increase in slay frequency if that - abazz or someone else could probably add a more difinitive word on the exact %. It does add crippling blows also but the dps gain is negligible in a burst situation. If you had actually read the whole thread which I doubt you have... instead you have joined midway through - you would have found that the discussion is aimed at raising our live dps. As such they want to decrease our undead dps, paladins are loathe to let this go and so they are fighting back by saying they don't want a decrease in undead dps. And with that they are justifying that our undead dps is not that stellar meanwhile offering up solutions to add to our live dps without touching slay since we were only given 2 options we gave the devs a 3rd. When speaking of our undead dps they also are referring to our burst dps I don't think anyone gives 2 shits about our sustained dps and so you can stop talking about it like it matters. We would like to burst higher on both undead and live targets. If sk can burst for 6k and wars can burst for 4k and we are supposed to be undead slayers then we should be able to burst equal to that and so that is the argument made. As it stands on raid targets we can burst for 4k if we are lucky and it isn't something we can guarantee. Our live dps numbers is max burn 2k maybe or something equally silly and so if a sk is 6k on all mobs and a war is 4k on all mobs you can begin to see the problem. This is the top end pally with the top end gear imagine what a lower level paladin would do....We want to be within a certain % of the sks overall dps on live while slightly pulling ahead on undead. This is not unreasonable. Screw your sustained dps we are calling shenanigans because your community is padding parses - all normy asked for was for you to go parse on test dummies and then we can talk instead you have replied back with reasons why that isn't the ideal environment. If i wanted to flex my epeen and pad a parse I could go to illsalin and only gleam the mobs that I one round with a double slay double riposte slay and show my dps at like 8k or something retarded you get my drift. Read the whole thread or don't post here. You are cluttering up our discussion with irrelevant convo - if you want to find out how slay works go read the forum where that is listed. If you don't know about how we do dps or care to look back in the thread to read the parses then please just go back to bother people on eq players. ugbash has offered intelligent discussion but this thread keeps getting revived by people who it doesn't even effect and on top of that nodyin said hed get back to us with numbers etc so....when he does we can have a real convo about this until then it is all conjecture.

and ffs if someone else says give me more tanking Idon't want dps or I want ae aggro screw dps please reroll a warrior or an sk or just /quit in general

[Jazya]

[shiftie]

[shiftie]

If you read the whole thread then you fail at reading comprehension.

That is our live dps on a test dummy

so add in all the tricks and clicks of other classes plus our live nukes and our lame ass discs and I think I was being fair and probably a little zealous to say we'd be around 2k dps max on live.

Our undead dps has been parsed over and over ... above that post and I'm not going to quote it you can be a big kid and find his original parse that showed 1879 dps on undead without nukes. With all modifiers I again was being generous by saying we could hit the 4k mark... and as I stated that is all tied to the range. We can in no way call upon that dps when we want... we have to hope it happens.

All of this ties into my statement of whether or not we could give 2 shits about our sustained dps. We are not dps classes, we do not have the luxury of playing dps, our situational battle environment has us tanking these days about 35% of the time healing 45% of the time utility 5% of the time and maybe dps 15% of the time on raids. In a group setting we care about our ability to be able to tank a named and add some dps. In a solo setting we want to be able to kill mobs efficiently and the fun of burning 2 mobs out of 10 in a 15 minute period is far more appealing then making that dps 500 more dps across a given number of mobs. Because when push came to shove you could then click a disc in a raid or group setting allowing you to burst 500 more dps for 2 minutes. Considering on a raid we'd actually get to use that disc only 15% of the time I don't know why you are jocking this thread.

You are strutting around like you don't have access to a merc healer that allows you to kill efficiently... where is our dps merc? You might have a leg to stand on if you didn't become a hybrid healer overnight. You can hit your ripo disc and tank a group named with your merc healing you and drop 11k dps (+) for the duration of the disc... so screw your sustained dps...stop whining. It takes me, probably 7-10 minutes to kill a named in FoS with a merc healing and I have the best ratio knight 2her in game.

[Jazya]

[shiftie]

I stated why... I want to be able to kill shit in less than 10 minutes. My personal preference is to be able to burst... though a global dps increase is more likely- although both are drastically needed.


His parse included no nukes and was against a dummy it was straight melee. People that claim 1.4 - 1.6 are burning.

[Jazya]

[shiftie]

considering we can't burn our mana bar down unless spamming group heals or aurora it is all sustainable but the 1.4 1.6 includes panther procs etc I assume because our nukes do not add 400-600 dps they are on the same timer as our stuns and on raid content you can hardly chain them they carry the same hate value.

[Jazya]

[Cellan]

I thought Holyforge still does provide a small increase to slay rates. But who cares really. The only way anyone knows it's working is by parsing it intentionally, and even then.......

BTW Shiftie, I need to make another sword for that check on stun procs, I kind of tributed the old one I was using.

[boukk]

[frocus]

Jaz Sk's hitting 6k dps are on 2 minute or so fight first popping 7th, spires and loading full dots on mob to include harm touch. Ht's dps shouldn't be looked at when we pallies compare our dps to SK's we have LoH as a counter to HT. Without HT those parses are about 5k.

Bouk if a rogue pops his riposte disc he can't use his dps discs and won't be pushing 11k dps because he won't have the back of the mob. Just like paladins rogues have to worry about mob defensive abilities like parry dodge and riposte lowering their dps plus deal with loss of most of their positional dps.

[shiftie]

I made the comment about rogues, and I watched it happen. And saw the parse.