Slay Undead Poll: Dev requested feedback

[karkariace]

That s where the problem lay, you play at a different level than where the problem is, the problem of imbalance, is mostly present in high end game, it is present in low end/mid end too, but not anywhere near,it get worse the more you progress, you only got true perception of balance of every level of the game when you are at the top end (simply by the fact that you've experienced it all).
You maybe dont give a crap about the 1% (yay more made up number!) at the top end, but you will experience this at some point when you finally reach this level of progression, and then you will bite your tongue for being so arrogant and ignorant.

Imbalance need to be fixed now regardless, either by giving paladin close to the same sk dps, or boosting our heal big time so we gain back the self healing advantage we had.

And thanks for paragraphs, much easyer to read.

[frocus]

Kark I have raided at the top end back when top end encounters had an actual learning curve. From everything I've heard in the last few expantions there hasn't been anything worth the time investment for me to raid instead of group/solo. Just because currently my schedule doesn't allow for raiding doesn't mean I never have experienced it. Top 1% isn't an arbitrary made up number consider the number of guilds and individuals are on a server then consider how many guilds are bleeding edge. You yourself called MMM geared low end. I'm hardly the one being arrogant and ignorant.

If you would look further up thread or maybe in the Paladin Dps thread you will see that I believe we need a DPS upgrade I just don't feel we need to be crying about wizard/rogue numbers. I specifically stated we need to compare our sustained and burst numbers vs warriors/SK's and use that as a baseline to ask for improvement. If you compare those number you will see auto attack dps between sk/pallies is really close(and would be closed ifwe got the Soul Abrasion type aa i recommended for dps boost since it would have no impact on slay) and the spells an SK casts for sustained DPS grant a much Smaller boost relative to when they use 2nd spire, ht, and max out dots instead of utility. I'd love for Pallies to get a burst DPS disc major upgrade with shorter duration minus the Slay mod of holy forge. It would be a good start as will adding Lance line to us with about 10% greater damage/mana costs over sk spears since we won't have dots to Supplement said nukes. But going to the devs with a 2.6k undead parse then claiming wizzies are out doing it by 10x and asking for dps/mitigation improvements to fix it is the wrong way to go about it.

[karkariace]

That you raided high end in the past doesnt matter, it s past, there wasn't any unbalance problems back then, the problem is from recent content, not old.

[boukk]

[vawen]

[Ughbash]

[boukk]

I have a couple questions if you don't midn humoring me.

Were you useing a 1hs or a 2hs for the 2.6k? I looked at yrou magelo and only saw the 1hs but then you ahve bags blocked so curious what weapon you were using. Oh and I may have misse dit but what overhaste are you using? He s using kerafyrm 2HP, which is f all difference with tower one .

Riposte does add a lot but this is my ignorance here, can you get a slay on a riposte? If not the riposte damage would not scale with slay but still be based on your live dps. You get slay riposte, it s very common, even add some double slay riposte, it account quite a decent chunk of the dps

And this is probalby a foolish request, but any chance you could get a guildie bard and shaman to slum with you in HoS so we coudl see what you get with Champion, overhaste, and Shaman epic included? I did try that back in TBS,and difference on live wasnt much, was basically going on burn from 1K2 to 1K4 (this was back in TBS, you can see how our dps basically almost didnt evolve)

And how much dps do you think you should do sustained on undead? if a warrior does 2k dps sunstained and 3k burst shoudl you sustain 3k on undead? or do you feel like you should sustain more than that?
Vawenus is being very nice on number, cause warrior can burn way more than 3Kdps and sustain (ie 10min fight) way more than 2k,but again most our warrior dont have top end weapon yet, however a sk and war should in no way outdps us on undead, far from that.

[karkariace]

Warrior guildies manage to burn at around 4kish sometime close to 5K depending on guild setting,they can maintain bout 2,5k/3Kish dps depending on situation for long enough time to be considered sustained, if you take into account the 10min mark established by the devs.
SK are even furthermore unbalanced .

I would say nowaday paladin s sustained should be around 2K+ on live, 3,5k on undead, while being able to burn to 4K on live and 6/7K on undead.
All my number are using top end gear/weaponry.

[vawen]

Was using 5% overhaste.

[Hulkling]

[Brohg]

From my casual observation, my warrior bot with Steamfactory axe mainhand gains a little over 300 dps while tanking instead of assisting, from riposte and damage shield. I don't have a 2h good enough to test.

[shiftie]

Lets be honest and admit the burst dps from riposte slay is considerable. Sure over a long enough timeline you might not show huge gains but in the realtime environment when a mob only has a fixed # of hp and you double slay and then double riposte slay it is substantial. The long parses don't show the ingame value of this beneficial factor. Does riposte count toward the total # of swings or is it on its own independent counter. From the fixed % of total swings that slay is supposed to fire or does this get into that whole bash slay debate that once caused turmoil? Regardless I personally would count Riposte slay a huge boost in dps a prime example of this would be to round up 10-12 mobs in illsalin and watch riposte kill a non targeted mob- as such when pulling a group of mobs like this I actually have to use ALEX so that I don't riposte slay and then start a summon fest. Considering you can slay for full damage on riposte which nowadays is in the 20k range at the least that is 20k dmg you wouldn't otherwise see if you couldn't slay on a riposte and just like normal slay rate it is all about the range so it can either be friendly or it can punch you in the groin.

anyhow just my 2cp
shiftie

[Jazya]

Re: Rogue parse not including disciplines; assume "Every fight" disciplines are a wash. Openers assume an 'out of combat' state every 30 seconds which will cost the Rogue more sustained DPS than they produce. Bleed/TE *MAY* make up this difference in a too-perfect-to-be-realistic environment but I doubt it.

Also I wouldn't factor burst discs into a sustained environment. It's just not realistically how Rogues use their discs. The power here is burst dps, you save them for an overpull/named, not to spam them every refresh to pad a parse (probably would run out of END doing this anyway thus not making it truly sustainable)

The bigger question here though is really "is it really fair for Paladin DPS vs undead to compete with the top tier of DPS classes?"

[Hulkling]

[Jazya]

[Hulkling]

Either way, we've all seen the Rogue burst parses for over 10k, so naturally thier sustained DPS is going to take a hit, as it should. So I'm not buying into this pally/rogue comparison whatsoever, nor should anyone else.

[Jazya]

I think you'll find similar results regardless of whichever melee DPS class you choose to compare your sustainable damage to. Rogues used to be the undisputed kings, but DPS has become somewhat vanilla these days. I was merely highlighting that Paladin (EDIT: SUSTAINED - gosh did I really have to type that?) vs Undead is right up there with the top tier melee DPS classes.

[Hulkling]

[shiftie]

Slay was once considered burst dps, along with our nukes etc... through stagnation it has become "sustained" dps - this in and of itself is pure BS.

[Jazya]

[Ughbash]

[Hulkling]

[Jazya]

[Vaindolf]

My 2,6k parse over a couple of hours in HoS was with tower 2 hander pally spear, 10% overhaste, and boxed a shammy using champ/eipcs clickies and whatever and burning mana on undead nukes etc.

The point is, as many pallys saying, our substained undead dps IS in the ballpark of dps classes substained dps. But on burn fights we arent even close to DPS classes vs undeads. So i dont think our current undead DPS is even close to be unreasonable as some claim they are. Thats why i DO NOT see why devs wanna nerf our undead dps BIG TIME, to raise live dps a tad.

I think, if i recall correctly, they mentioned they were going to close the gaps together some among classes and dps last beta. But in this expansion in the top end i think its looks the other way around.

[frocus]

Hulk I never saw Nodyin call for a Catastrophic nerf to slay. Yes he said we would see a significant decrease to slay but that doesn't imply a catastrophic nerf. 20% is fairly significant if slay were reduced by 20% and live melee generated dps increased by 20% we would still see a minor boost to undead dps. Until we see exact number after Nodyin is done with his number crushing we won't know exactly what we will be getting. Some examples using 1k as baseline dps before the nerf.

1000dps x75% from slay =1750 dps.

1200dps(20% over our 1k base from increase)x 50%(from new adjusted slay)= 1800dps vs undead.

A minor 50 dps boost to undead but still a nerf to slay combined with a boost to standard content yields beneficial though negligible effects in the undead side of the equation the live side boost is significant(percentage wise a 20% increase to our sustained kill rate means ~20% more kills per time frame minus pull time.

[vawen]

Your are missing the point Jazya, our slay dps is beign surpased by all the comparable class (war and sks) if them want to. Since slay is not controlable, we can end up doing between 1.6k or 5k dps on a single combat, doing an average of 2.6k (with 2h weapon, raid long term buffed, top end armor and weaponary (tower) and a shitload of AAs (2.5k+)).

Any competent sk or war will do the same or more dps than that on long term doesn't matter the kind of target them are fighting. If we can say each 10 mins "ey, gonna pop out slays like mad and do 5k dps on the next 2 mob" then you will have a point and you could start compare us to melee dps classes (ber, rog, mnk or rng), until that happend we are "equal" dps tanks on 1 kind of target and like 1k dps less on all the others.

[Jazya]

[vawen]

[Jazya]

[frocus]

Part of the reason 2 handers didn't get as big a boost relative to 1 handers is due to the unique lines warriors, knights, rangers, and serkers get with regards to increasing 2hd swing rate. A smaller raw increase to 2hander ratios provdes a similar boost the dps as the bigger dps boosts to duel wield weapons.

Probably more so from stuff serkers get than the other classes as the 2hand stagnation has existed from around OOW when serkers really started coming into their own. Paladins are also probably more at fault along with serkers but more for lower dealys on the 2 handers to limit max slay (eyecandy) numbers.

Btw Vawen the Logs info you posted shows that Slays increase your melee dps by about 75% as 35.2/51 is very close to 75%. So because of the way slay works as a multiplicitive increase you will not see a decrease in the percentage of overall dps slay grants inless the live dps upgrade comes from either a damage bonus type upgrade or spell dps upgrade. If the live boost doesn't come via one of these 2 routes you will see melee generated and slay dps percentages of total increasing while spell dps percentage of overall will drop.


Sk's get no melee dps burst disc when pallies get tehre 5 minute melee boost disc SK's get one with a 100% mod to base lifetap damage. this disc makes normal taps do 200% for the duration and 300% of base on crits.

[vawen]

[Jazya]

[vawen]

[karkariace]

[boukk]

Few facts, sustained include the use of anything aivable, is anything from 10min , parsing for hours, not using disc, aas, is irrealistic, it doesnt happens, even in grps, and raid parse rarely go over the 10min mark.
My point is the 2K5 rogue parse is irrealistic at best , and doesnt demonstrate anything but rogues being totally dishonest about their dps in hope to be bumped above wizard dps.
A top end rogue will easily do double that dps, using everything he has access to.

As a paladin, i use to be able to compete for first space with in SoF on undead mob, in SoD, i can t even make to top ten.
There s no reason for su and live dps to not get a boost anymore, i d probably accept a stagnation, if we were bumped in dps department by a lot.

[Hulkling]

[frocus]

[quote/]If you add more dmg to either bash, DirDmg, or direct melee you decrease the total dmg slay did in percent values. Take into account also that slays are critical hits transformed (if I remember right) so it is less than 75% since if hit wasn't a slay would be a critical with some dmg.
[/quote]

Slays haven't been tied to criticals for a while now. Slays can come from bashes and are directly tied to melee damage. the only way to increase melee without effecting slay is to add damage bonus since bonus is added after slay modifier. based on the numbers you provided for percentage of damage thru fights slay is accounting for a clost to 75% of the dps done in a particular fight it will be higher or lower because short fights are prone to larger effects from the RNG but it will average out to close to 75% over time.

[vawen]

[Normy]

I'll post some numbers and full logs if some rogues are willing to do the same. I'm not exactly top end, but I'm not a total slacker. I'd love to see a parse from a rogue behind a mob, spamming Backstab, buffed properly minus the short term buffs like champion or bard songs of course, and compare it to what I can do bashing and nuking undead from the rear arch. But I'd want to see the full log file, a 20-30 minute parse would probably do.

Course maybe to make it perfectly fair it should be done with 0 buffs, since thats the only way to confirm that neither person is getting an unfair advantage or disadvantage from having certain buffs. With a full log it would be easy to tell if someone is padding (or in this case, depadding) their numbers by checking the frequency of backstab, bash, kick, nuke, whatever. Anyone up for it? Or am I going to end up wasting my time on the test server for an hour for nothing?

[Jazya]