Baby talk: The new risk to flight security?

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Baby talk: The new risk to flight security?

Postby WaringMcMarrin » Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:10 pm

Intersting article today about a mother and her 19 month old child being kicked off a flight because the infant was repeating over and over again "bye bye plane" and the mother refused to use baby benedril to try and calm down the infant. One of the interesting things I noticed in the comments was people saying that children need to be disciplined but my thoughts are can a 19 moth old child really understand any discipline?
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Postby Galelor » Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:28 pm

Flight security is a 1-900-MixALot joke.
My parents have worked in the air lines for over 30 years each.
I have flown all over the world, and I have flown dozens of different air lines.
If people want to crash a plane, they will find a way. We wanted to send a man to the moon, we found a way.

Some 1-900-MixALot wacko tries to blow up his shoes, and now all of us have to take off our shoes when going through security.

It is a 1-900-MixALot joke. There are way better ways to secure America than bothering everyday citizens and restricting what you can say in an airport...
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Postby Amanensia » Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:09 am

Flight security is indeed a joke. There was a possible attempt to take down a plane using some sort of liquid explosive, so now most liquids are banned (well, in Europe, dunno about America) - that is a purely reactive ban to one out of a thousand possible threats, simply because that threat has already been tried. Silly. You don't increase security by reacting to a previous threat; you increase security by working to analyze possible future threats and working on neutralising them.

Preventing passenger access to the cockpit was about the only sensible move I can think of in terms of the "new security".
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Postby Eirgorn » Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:13 am

Do you have a link to the by chance article Waring?

My friend was telling me about this yesterday and Id like to read about it =)

He said the mom and kid were on a talk show that originally sympathized with them, but the kid was out of control on the tv show too. Maybe I should scan youtube for some clips.

The way I see it is the airlines are a business and if they want to kick someone off becuase they are bothering the other 100+ passengers, they have the right. I know I wouldnt want to sit next to an uncontrollable kid for a 4+ hour flight.

Here's a clip I found on a local news website:

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/13675836/deta ... l&psp=news
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Postby Tordail » Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:27 am

Ehh ... a 19-month-old is going to be out of control anyways. They have the attention span of a gnat. I can't blame the kid for saying "bye bye plane." He was probably doing the backward hand wave to himself, too, the way toddlers do. It's perfectly normal behavior. What is a parent going to tell her 19-month-old about a plane flight? "We're going bye-bye on the plane and we're going to fly like birds!" Jeez. What did the flight attendant think, that the baby had a bomb in his little light-up sneakers? Please. The kid was reportedly asleep before the mother made it back to the terminal after having been kicked off the plane. I doubt he'd have been awake for the entire flight anyway -- and 1-900-MixALot anybody who suggests drugging a child so as not to bother anybody else. That's child abuse.

Anyway -- do a search on CNN.com for the story. You'll probably find it easily.
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Postby Darsa » Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:15 am

I totally agree that it's ridiculous to even suggest drugging a child because someone doesn't like listening to children talk. I was EXTREMELY lucky with my child as a toddler, I mean so lucky I only had the one for fear that I used up all of my womb's good manners on that one child, but wow... that's just wrong to tell someone to drug their child. :( If she was saying the same thing over and over, it sure sounds like she was just trying to keep herself awake and losing the battle; I think a little patience would have gone a long way there...
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Postby Eirgorn » Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:30 am

I agree Darsa, and I hope my little girl is as good as your child when she gets older!!! She's just 2 months now and a perfect angel - just hoping she stays that way =)
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Postby Galelor » Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:47 am

No one likes kicking screaming kids on the plane. It is a part of life. Drugging a the child sounds nice, but imo it is morally reprehensible.
I do understand the pair being asked to leave the flight if they were super out of control. I wasn't there so i am unable to say if there action was right or wrong. I do not believe it would be right to have them removed from the plane because the kid was saying "bye bye plane." That is not a security risk.

Btw, certain airlines let pilots carry firearms if they go through an involved training course. This is another positive step for security.
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Postby Hecude Poison`Blood » Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:46 pm

The way i see it. Think about being in her job like that. Everyday you think about "What if the plane goes down.." or "What should i do if a terrorists attacks...", its gotta be stressful as shit. It may have been a little over kill to toss them off the flight but she was in her rights to do it. Kids are being trained in Al Qeda [sp?], there no getting around it. Just because of age you cant dis qualify someone.
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Postby WaringMcMarrin » Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:51 pm

Hecude Poison`Blood wrote:The way i see it. Think about being in her job like that. Everyday you think about "What if the plane goes down.." or "What should i do if a terrorists attacks...", its gotta be stressful as shit. It may have been a little over kill to toss them off the flight but she was in her rights to do it. Kids are being trained in Al Qeda [sp?], there no getting around it. Just because of age you cant dis qualify someone.


What about people who work in places where there is much more danger every day such as people shooting at them and trying to kill them? There are lots of people who work in dangerous jobs and don't take it out on others around them.

P.S. For those asking I don't have a link anymore but when I found it on Google news there was around 400 related articles.
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Postby Eirgorn » Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:56 pm

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/13675836/deta ... l&psp=news

This is the link I found of the interview on Good Morning America with the lady and child if anyone is interested - I added it in to my first post, but it is easily overlooked.
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Postby dindaur » Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:00 pm

so convervative that the children are now shut up heh .
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Postby Galelor » Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:19 pm

Hecude Poison`Blood wrote:The way i see it. Think about being in her job like that. Everyday you think about "What if the plane goes down.." or "What should i do if a terrorists attacks...", its gotta be stressful as shit. It may have been a little over kill to toss them off the flight but she was in her rights to do it. Kids are being trained in Al Qeda [sp?], there no getting around it. Just because of age you cant dis qualify someone.


That is rediculious. If she goes to the job everyday with that mentality, then she is in the wrong profession. I know dozens of flight attendants that don't go to work with that mind set.

A kid under 2 years old being trained by Al Qeda? wtf?

Btw, I highly doubt the flight attendant was the one who made the call to remove the kid from the plane. It was most likely suggested to the pilot or ground crew, and they made the call.
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Postby Hecude Poison`Blood » Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:20 pm

Pakistani Jihadis training children as "future terrorists"
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/004136.php


They are being trained, no doubt about it. She had every right to report them.
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Postby Amanensia » Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:02 am

Hecude, we are talking about an under-two-year-old infant. Don't be so ridiculous.
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Postby Hecude Poison`Blood » Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:58 am

Amanensia wrote:Hecude, we are talking about an under-two-year-old infant. Don't be so ridiculous.


That kinda thinking is what gets stuff past security. You cant omit anything now days with how terrorists think. You act/do something out that looks bad, you will get punished. The kid did this and was told to leave the flight, perfectly simple.
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Postby Kianor » Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:06 am

So, how exactly do you think a 19 month old poses a risk to security, Hecude?
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Postby Amanensia » Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:17 am

Oh but Kianor it might have been trained to carry a nappy bomb and detonate it by crying the right notes in a particular order!

Just a guess here Hecude but (a) I bet you don't have any kids, and (b) I bet you are American.
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Postby Bethiana » Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:45 am

Kianor wrote:So, how exactly do you think a 19 month old poses a risk to security, Hecude?


They feed the child nitro, of course, and give it a laxative - one wet toot and the whole plane goes down, man.

All those lives gone, because we let a 19-month old organic weapon of ass destruction onto the plane.
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Postby Galelor » Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:11 am

Hecude Poison`Blood wrote:
Amanensia wrote:Hecude, we are talking about an under-two-year-old infant. Don't be so ridiculous.


That kinda thinking is what gets stuff past security. You cant omit anything now days with how terrorists think. You act/do something out that looks bad, you will get punished. The kid did this and was told to leave the flight, perfectly simple.


If you honestly think that a WHITE AMERICAN WOMAN AND HER 19 MONTH OLD BABY are a risk to flight security, we have larger issues in the united states than airplane bombings.
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Postby SBBD » Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:15 am

Why don't they just get it over with and make everyone fly naked,locked in cages and knocked out.
No bags either,if they want cloths they can buy them when they get to where the're going.
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Postby Unmei » Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:22 am

Hecude Poison`Blood wrote:
Amanensia wrote:Hecude, we are talking about an under-two-year-old infant. Don't be so ridiculous.


That kinda thinking is what gets stuff past security. You cant omit anything now days with how terrorists think. You act/do something out that looks bad, you will get punished. The kid did this and was told to leave the flight, perfectly simple.


Wow. Clearly, you have no idea of the mental capacity of a 19 month old child. You'd have better luck training a dog to blow up a plane.

Uh oh! Now I'm giving the terrorists ideas, because they are definitely monitoring this forum to find better ways to attack us!
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Postby Tkasha » Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:27 am

Amanensia wrote:Oh but Kianor it might have been trained to carry a nappy bomb and detonate it by crying the right notes in a particular order!

Just a guess here Hecude but (a) I bet you don't have any kids, and (b) I bet you are American.


What's that got to do with anything????????? I'm American and I don't agree with them kickin em off the plane just because of what a 2 year old is saying.
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Postby WaringMcMarrin » Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:57 pm

Hecude Poison`Blood wrote:
Amanensia wrote:Hecude, we are talking about an under-two-year-old infant. Don't be so ridiculous.


That kinda thinking is what gets stuff past security. You cant omit anything now days with how terrorists think. You act/do something out that looks bad, you will get punished. The kid did this and was told to leave the flight, perfectly simple.



Breaking news: a baby talking takes down a 747.......................


Yes you need to be carefull but there is no way a 19th month old baby who likes to talk ( don't all baby's love this when they learn to talk? ) is any kind of terrorist threat.
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Postby Hecude Poison`Blood » Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:07 pm

I didnt mean the kid would be the threat itself but with the adult with it, who knows what she could hide on a kid if the "O its a kid, nothing is wrong with them so let them pass". Kids do go through the repeating stage and repeat what they hear. If there was a Arab kid with its father and he looks Islamic and the kid was saying bye bye plane would you think the same way as with this mother and her kid? No exceptions, everything should be checked. The flight attendant was perfectly justified in notifying whoever she did.
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Postby Tordail » Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:15 am

Respectfully quoted from the great Dr. Franklin (Nov. 1755):
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
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Postby Hecude Poison`Blood » Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:58 am

essential liberty? Getting booted off a airlines plane for breaking rules does not infringe on liberties. Just like these forums, you piss sam off or break the rules you can get booted.
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Postby WaringMcMarrin » Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:03 am

Hecude Poison`Blood wrote:essential liberty? Getting booted off a airlines plane for breaking rules does not infringe on liberties. Just like these forums, you piss sam off or break the rules you can get booted.


Since when is having a talking baby breaking the rules?
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Postby Hecude Poison`Blood » Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:00 am

WaringMcMarrin wrote:
Hecude Poison`Blood wrote:essential liberty? Getting booted off a airlines plane for breaking rules does not infringe on liberties. Just like these forums, you piss sam off or break the rules you can get booted.


Since when is having a talking baby breaking the rules?


Its what the kid said, not that the kid was talking.
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Postby Kianor » Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:44 am

Hecude Poison`Blood wrote:Its what the kid said, not that the kid was talking.


Oh, you mean innocent baby talk?

I can imagine a scenario where a mother tried to keep a small child occupied by watching planes take off, and saying bye bye to each one as it did so....

Now, if he'd said "Daddy make plane go BOOM", that might have been a bit different.
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Postby Tordail » Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:51 am

Hecude Poison`Blood wrote:essential liberty? Getting booted off a airlines plane for breaking rules does not infringe on liberties.

No, and it wasn't meant to imply that. Think a little harder.

I'm not entirely sure what rule a 19-month-old baby broke by waving to himself and saying, "Bye bye, plane." What, the No Talking Toddlers rule? The Ban on Improper Grammar? Please. Neither the child nor his mother broke any rules. This is a case of overreaction on the stewardess' part, not a case of rule-breaking on the passenger's part. I was disappointed there was not an outcry on the plane from the other passengers, who should have been angered at this display from the stewardess and the airline.
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Postby Galelor » Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:36 pm

Hecude Poison`Blood wrote:
WaringMcMarrin wrote:
Hecude Poison`Blood wrote:essential liberty? Getting booted off a airlines plane for breaking rules does not infringe on liberties. Just like these forums, you piss sam off or break the rules you can get booted.


Since when is having a talking baby breaking the rules?


Its what the kid said, not that the kid was talking.


America has really gotten away from the common sense way of doing things. It is a 19 month old baby for god sakes. Some babies can speak in full sentences at the age of 2. That is about the earliest it is going to happen. What the baby said was baby talk. It was nothing. It could have 1 of a billion possible meanings (both good and bad.) Use some common sense, and have some compassion.

As a species, we have historically raised children as a community/tribal effort. I am amazed, and scared, at how far away we have gotten from this traditional way of doing things.
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Postby Bethiana » Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:17 pm

Galelor wrote:
Hecude Poison`Blood wrote:
WaringMcMarrin wrote:
Hecude Poison`Blood wrote:essential liberty? Getting booted off a airlines plane for breaking rules does not infringe on liberties. Just like these forums, you piss sam off or break the rules you can get booted.


Since when is having a talking baby breaking the rules?


Its what the kid said, not that the kid was talking.


America has really gotten away from the common sense way of doing things. It is a 19 month old baby for god sakes. Some babies can speak in full sentences at the age of 2. That is about the earliest it is going to happen. What the baby said was baby talk. It was nothing. It could have 1 of a billion possible meanings (both good and bad.) Use some common sense, and have some compassion.

As a species, we have historically raised children as a community/tribal effort. I am amazed, and scared, at how far away we have gotten from this traditional way of doing things.


If I heard a 19-month old saying "bye bye plane!" my only thoughts would be that the kid had been watching planes take off while waiting to board. That anyone misconstrued the child's words as anything more shows an overabundance of needless paranoia. The kid did nothing wrong. The parent did nothing wrong. (Seriously, have you ever taken care of a 19 month old? Taking care of my sisters' kids are a primary motivator for keeping condoms handy.) Anyone responsible for the decision to make them step off the plane was in the wrong.

You can use the argument "Terrorists could be using someone with a child to sneak aboard explosives!" And while, sure, there's a miniscule chance that someone might think of that, the stringent regulations of what you can and cannot carry on a plane with you will likely catch that. They already limit how much baby formula you can bring on board for chrissakes.

The Franklin quote hits dead-on. Anyone giving in to the paranoia at the expense of their freedoms needs to put down the newspaper and start thinking for themselves instead of regurgitating the same hyperreactionary and overimaginative tripe others are hastily hyperventilating in their direction.

Having you live in a constant state of fear and paranoia gives the terrorists exactly what they want, especially if you use that fear to turn on your own countrymen ... including a 19-month old toddler still in the stages of language development where they cannot formulate an entire sentence coherently.

Next time I tell someone to die in a mild electrical fire, screaming to their imaginary flavor of deity, I'll be sure to wonder if some knee-jerk reactionary mouthbreather is going to consider it a threat to their person instead of my being a verbose bastard who gets his points across using short sharp shocks. Maybe the accusation will make me stop to pause and wonder how dangerous my words are ... but chances are I'll remember that words are powerless without either an action to back them up or someone GIVING them power by treating them as more than words, and that it's the perception of a brainwashed, pathetic human being twisting my words into whatever their demented, fearful psyche needs to justify their otherwise illogical paranoias and fears.

It's a damned toddler. If you have to use the words of a child still in a developmental phase of communication to justify your fears and paranoias you have completely and utterly failed at life and no real basis to build those uncertainties on.
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Postby Galelor » Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:41 pm

As a side note, I wonder how many terrorists, who have attempted plane take overs, have actively engaged in conversation, while on board the plane, about how they are going to take over or blow up the plane before they actually take said action.
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Postby Amanensia » Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:41 am

I am sure terrorists couldn't get into America now anyway. After all, when you fly in, you have to tick a box on the back of the landing card to say whether or not you intend taking part in any terrorist activities. That'll catch 'em!
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Postby Kiru » Mon Jul 23, 2007 4:31 am

Amanensia wrote:Flight security is indeed a joke. There was a possible attempt to take down a plane using some sort of liquid explosive, so now most liquids are banned (well, in Europe, dunno about America) - that is a purely reactive ban to one out of a thousand possible threats, simply because that threat has already been tried...

The morons who had been working on it had yet to come up with any combination of liquids and/or gels that would produce smoke, much less heat, fire, or an explosion, when they were rounded up. So liquids and gels in quantities larger than the overpriced trial sizes that you can buy at most airport stores are banned from carry-on luggage in the UK and the US, because some idiots came up with an idea that turned out to be completely unworkable.
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